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> Neverwinter, Shadowrun in D&D
cleggster
post Apr 25 2005, 12:51 AM
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Some of you may be interested, but a Shadowrun mod for Neverwinter Nights was just released. It's a beta so there isn't much in it. But from what I saw, it looks good. It does have cyberware and magic. Firearms too. There also a matrix system, but I havn't seen it yet. It's based on D20 though. And I know how some of you feel about D20. :S So yes you start at 1rst level and must go up.

Shadowrunner Nights

So for those with Neverwinter Nights, you can check out some Shadowrunning goodness. It's a start at least.

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The Grifter
post Apr 25 2005, 01:09 AM
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NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

This does not exist.

Move along people, nothing to see here.
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hahnsoo
post Apr 25 2005, 01:17 AM
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It's not even a Beta, at the moment. There are limitations to the Aurora engine which prevent the full implementation of Shadowrun mechanics, especially firearms. When you have to hack a sling bullet and a sling to be a pistol, that's when you know it would take too much to feasibly do. I can't even imagine what it looks like from the scripting end.

NWN would work great as a 3-D "whiteboard" type setting for remote communication for online gaming groups. But there are far too many limitations to run a Shadowrun game using solely the NWN engine.
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frostPDP
post Apr 25 2005, 01:48 AM
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Its ironic, though, that if a Shadowrun RPG were to be made I picture NWN as the closest sort of thing. I like NWN, despite its limitations, and here's why.

1: Modules. That in itself is great.

2: Character Customizability - I just picture character design to be something like NWN's.

3: Online capability - For a long time I dreamed of a D&D group online. This made it possible, albiet difficult and complex. SR could be the same.

So ignoring the pluses and minuses of 3eD&D, could SR be coded "over" NWN? Well, maybe not. Its....Strange, to say the least. But doable, maybe.
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toturi
post Apr 25 2005, 02:13 AM
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I've kept my eye on SRN for its inception (I've been playing NWN since it was released), the concept is good and I like it, given its limitations.
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The Jopp
post Apr 25 2005, 02:43 AM
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I'd rather use a remade WoW engine.
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hahnsoo
post Apr 25 2005, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE (frostPDP)
So ignoring the pluses and minuses of 3eD&D, could SR be coded "over" NWN? Well, maybe not. Its....Strange, to say the least. But doable, maybe.

Speaking as an NWN expert, you could make a scripted dice roller and several tools that simulate SR mechanics. However, you could never overhaul the combat engine, the hitpoint/level mechanic, and the stat/skill portion of the Aurora engine to come even close to Shadowrun (all of that is hardcoded, and cannot be scripted). The people who are doing the Shadowrunner Nights project have the same mindset as those doing Shadowrun d20 conversions, believing that d20 (with classes and levels) could still capture the gritty SR feel (not my cup of tea, certainly, but whatever floats their boat).

Still, there are strengths to using NWN. The tile-based map building is a plus for quick and easy scenery building, and there are several hakpacks with modern-themed tiles. There are also hakpaks to replace the default models and graphics for bows and crossbows to instead resemble modern rifles. I've personally written some fun Autofire and Burst fire scripts in a steampunk variant of NWN, and just about any single event or spell or effect can be scripted fairly easily. NWN simply isn't flexible enough, though, to do a complete SR conversion. I'm waiting for Dragon Age, myself. Because it's Bioware's own IP, they can open up the engine for a higher degree of customization.
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Arethusa
post Apr 25 2005, 03:14 AM
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I only briefly had interest in NWN, but would it be possible to handle SR's damage system with 10 hit points per person and a script handling how many of those they lose corresponding to Shadowrun's damage levels? Bit hackish, but so long as the damage system allows pretty free scripting before you apply damage, seems potentially possible.

Not that I think it's a great idea, really. There are plenty of other limitations to Aurora that I am aware of, and the game's old enough at this point that there are better places to look if you want to put together some sort of SR mod.
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hahnsoo
post Apr 25 2005, 03:18 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 24 2005, 10:14 PM)
Bit hackish, but so long as the damage system allows pretty free scripting before you apply damage, seems potentially possible.

Nope. You have to apply damage before the scripting kicks in on the OnHit event. Although I suppose you can try to make all weapons do 1 point of damage, and simply heal that point after the fact when it's resisted. But you still have to have a convenient place to store and display all of the other factors involved in combat. Because the stats are hardcoded, anything that involves self-made statistics will be invisible to the user, and that's a Bad Thing ™.

I would dispute that there are better places to look, as far as SR mods. NWN is really the only online RPG client interface that's fully customizable (within the constraints of d20, of course) and has a good DM/GM interface at the moment. We'll just have to see how NWN2 and Dragon Age (the only two games on the docket with the above features) turn out.

EDIT: I take that back. Vampire: the Masquerade - Redemption also has a GM/player client interface. Mapmaking for that game absolutely sucks, though. I will say the successes mechanic is a lot closer to SR than d20 ever was, certainly.
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cleggster
post Apr 25 2005, 02:16 PM
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Well, my brother is allready working on a stuffer shack run for it. Of course NWN scripting is his little obsesion. He allready did a small town where people can buy houses.I'm the one whos a Shadowrun junkie. Maybe I can come up with some good stories for it. Once he finishes tweaking the script that is. And while I agree with what people have had to say about the weaknesses of NWN (I got bored with the game after about a week.) it does looks nice. And I don't see Microsoft doing anything for it any time soon.

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Swing Kid
post Apr 25 2005, 03:08 PM
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Wow, I have a copy of Neverwinter Nights, but didn't like it too much. I have to admit that I will have to give it another shot once I get this mod. I wish it was using some semblance of the Shadowrun rulesystem, but at least we won't have to hook up our Sega's and Nintendo's to play some single-player SR.
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Echo
post May 7 2005, 12:19 PM
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It's covered now on the NWN homepage:

http://nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_sha...ner_nights.html
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hahnsoo
post May 7 2005, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (Echo)
It's covered now on the NWN homepage:

http://nwn.bioware.com/players/profile_sha...ner_nights.html

Dead link, dude. It just takes you to a place where you have to log in on the Bioware web site. It's just a player profile, anyway.
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Austere Emancipa...
post May 7 2005, 01:10 PM
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Nope, that link is alive and well, and takes you to a short intro on the mod, a link to the home page (already linked in the first message of this thread), and a short interview with the developer.
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hahnsoo
post May 7 2005, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Nope, that link is alive and well, and takes you to a short intro on the mod, a link to the home page (already linked in the first message of this thread), and a short interview with the developer.

Yup, it is. It wasn't working on my end earlier. Hrm.
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Aku
post May 7 2005, 02:17 PM
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not that i have any money at the moment, but does anyone happen to know how much NWN is going for these days? has it hit the bargin bin yet?

And to be semi on tpoic, i'm not sure i'd play a d20 conversion of SR, although i have to say, if those SN's are part of it, i'm rather impressed, i always thought NWN was a isometrical view similar to BG2, and while i used to enjoy that style, i also like a bit more eye candy these days as well.
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Tanka
post May 7 2005, 02:19 PM
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NWN Platinum (NWN main, NWN Shadows of Urdentide, NWN Hordes of the Underdark) is going for about $30 if memory serves. It also comes with a few premium modules that normally cost $10ish.
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hahnsoo
post May 7 2005, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (Aku)
i always thought NWN was a isometrical view similar to BG2, and while i used to enjoy that style, i also like a bit more eye candy these days as well.

Nope, NWN is fully 3D, third-person. There are hacks that change the camera to just over your character's head, allowing for First Person views, if you'd like, and the camera can be adjusted with a simple "hold down your mouse-wheel and move". Combat and actions are simple point and click, like BG.
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Tanka
post May 7 2005, 02:32 PM
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You can also custom-craft your armor and weapons to a small extent.
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Aku
post May 7 2005, 02:35 PM
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hmm sounds interesting, maybe if i can save enough nickles and dimes i'll buy it. Tho this does get me in the mood to toss BG2 back on my system, even tho I dislike it since it's 2E...
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Tanka
post May 7 2005, 02:38 PM
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NWN is pretty well worth it, considering all the custom modules and such out there. Not to mention running on a Persistant World is fun as hell -- and free.
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Solstice
post May 8 2005, 03:46 PM
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Has anyone got this mod to work? My friend is going to set it up.
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SDX
post May 28 2005, 01:52 PM
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Just thought I'd add a little something in here - I'm SDX the creator of the SRN project. I know that most of you are probably a little sceptical, so I want to try to explain a little bit about what's actually going on. Maybe you'll give it a chance, maybe not. Basically SRN is an extension of D20MM, which yes, is d20 based modern conversion for NeverwinterNights. Now you can look at it two ways - its d20 so it can't get close to Shadowrun... its a completely different system, or you can look it as a video game version of Shadowrun - and as far as video game versions of a P&P game go, certain concessions have to be made.

The firearms from the original d20 system were a bit... odd. The new system that I created is more like RL, and fits well with SR. First you've got to have a weapon - its got an icon, and its own model just like anything else. You've got to have the type of bullets you want to reload, and you have to have an empty magazine. You reload, and hey - its loaded. It doesn't do it automatically for you in a firefight, and if you want to reload faster you have the option of dropping the magazine free versus replacing it in the inventory which saves you a few extra seconds of combat time.

The matrix system copies the character entering it, and allows you to have both a meat body and a matrix "body", and allows for you to be killed by the corp security while you're trying to unlock that door and shut down the cameras behind it.

The damage system, although modified, is similar to how SR works. You have a threshold of damage you can take before going unconscious. If you think about a video game where you die almost as soon as you get shot, and think about the fact that a PC rather than a GM is running it (and therefore the die rolled that kills you can't be fudged for a "serious injury that takes weeks to recover from), you might understand how cold, and aggrevating this can be. I did weeks of testing before I changed the system, but it works. In any case, it allows for you to continue to be attacked if your fellow runners can't protect you, or if you don't have a street doc with you.

Cyberware can be damaged, just as in P&P, and that'll make it hell trying to get anywhere to get those cybereyes repaired... you go blind and you're not going to be able to see as a player... so there isn't any real way to say "ok, well since I know this street like the back of my hand I'm going to...", you're going to really have to do it. 'Ware like Move-By-Wire can cause TLEx and CCSS, which can really ruin your day... but if you don't get it you really have an edge... of course the law of averages IS against you... so it might be a short lived character.

Seattle is being built completely from the maps - right now the downtown area is about 25% complete, with all the local restaurants, club penumbra, the arcology... everything. Why? Cause it needs to be as close to P&P as possible... so as close as the engine will allow.

Weapons can be concealed behind you're lined coat - although some more so than others. That large machine gun will be a lot more obvious than the uzi...

And although it is level based, a well placed frag will ruin your day... even if you are a high level.

Oh, and as far as it being 3rd person - I set it up so when you're decking you can have either 1st or 3rd... and might allow either module wide.

And the biggest thing to me is there isn't any power gaming. You're gonna start off at the bottom of the food chain - and if you survive you might make it big. You don't know the guys up top from the start... don't expect to get into Dante's Inferno... don't expect to know Harlequin, or anyone else really. You've gotta earn your contacts, and you've gotta earn your right to call yourself a runner. And if you think you're really hardcore, you can start off as a Renraku employee working in the Arcology at the time of the shutdown - you make it out alive and you're going to have to find a new line of work, and so running the shadows after your harrowing experience might just be the best route to go. The NPCs all have likes and dislikes, and "emotions". You might be able to get one to like you enough to want some sort of relationship - to take em back to the apartment... of course you've got to own one first. You can have a seperate safehouse, you've got to eat, and rest, and drink... otherwise bad things will happen... such as death. And there is weather - dynamic of course, so you never know when it will, and when it does if you're out in it it will have an effect on you... hours out in the cold rain will take their toll.

Beyond all this, it's fun to play with other players. We did a server test last night around the Reraku Arcology area, I placed a few halloweeners to test combat, and when we survived that fight we tested PVP. It really was fun - I'm honestly extremely pleased that everything works that well. So, believe it or not. This game is going to be as much like 3E Shadowrun as possible, down to the smallest detail. And although I can't rewrite the engine it runs on, it is possible to have SR. And it will be a MMORPG - provided we can get donors for the server costs (otherwise it'll be a 8 player server heh).
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toturi
post May 28 2005, 02:02 PM
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There are problems with the astral and magic aspect of it. Materialised spirits, elementals to your Charisma limit, nature spirits to their domain, astral projection, masking, Background count. A Social Adept can walk into a bank and come out with the guards willingly carrying the loot for her.

How accurate to SR did you model riggers with a whole drone network?

The whole basis of SR is that you can already kickass and take names under the same chargen system. This is difficult to model on the NW engine using any chargen that the game supports.

NWN Forums: Toturi Sezaru
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SpasticTeapot
post May 28 2005, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (SDX)
Just thought I'd add a little something in here - I'm SDX the creator of the SRN project. I know that most of you are probably a little sceptical, so I want to try to explain a little bit about what's actually going on. Maybe you'll give it a chance, maybe not. Basically SRN is an extension of D20MM, which yes, is d20 based modern conversion for NeverwinterNights. Now you can look at it two ways - its d20 so it can't get close to Shadowrun... its a completely different system, or you can look it as a video game version of Shadowrun - and as far as video game versions of a P&P game go, certain concessions have to be made.

The firearms from the original d20 system were a bit... odd. The new system that I created is more like RL, and fits well with SR. First you've got to have a weapon - its got an icon, and its own model just like anything else. You've got to have the type of bullets you want to reload, and you have to have an empty magazine. You reload, and hey - its loaded. It doesn't do it automatically for you in a firefight, and if you want to reload faster you have the option of dropping the magazine free versus replacing it in the inventory which saves you a few extra seconds of combat time.

The matrix system copies the character entering it, and allows you to have both a meat body and a matrix "body", and allows for you to be killed by the corp security while you're trying to unlock that door and shut down the cameras behind it.

The damage system, although modified, is similar to how SR works. You have a threshold of damage you can take before going unconscious. If you think about a video game where you die almost as soon as you get shot, and think about the fact that a PC rather than a GM is running it (and therefore the die rolled that kills you can't be fudged for a "serious injury that takes weeks to recover from), you might understand how cold, and aggrevating this can be. I did weeks of testing before I changed the system, but it works. In any case, it allows for you to continue to be attacked if your fellow runners can't protect you, or if you don't have a street doc with you.

Cyberware can be damaged, just as in P&P, and that'll make it hell trying to get anywhere to get those cybereyes repaired... you go blind and you're not going to be able to see as a player... so there isn't any real way to say "ok, well since I know this street like the back of my hand I'm going to...", you're going to really have to do it. 'Ware like Move-By-Wire can cause TLEx and CCSS, which can really ruin your day... but if you don't get it you really have an edge... of course the law of averages IS against you... so it might be a short lived character.

Seattle is being built completely from the maps - right now the downtown area is about 25% complete, with all the local restaurants, club penumbra, the arcology... everything. Why? Cause it needs to be as close to P&P as possible... so as close as the engine will allow.

Weapons can be concealed behind you're lined coat - although some more so than others. That large machine gun will be a lot more obvious than the uzi...

And although it is level based, a well placed frag will ruin your day... even if you are a high level.

Oh, and as far as it being 3rd person - I set it up so when you're decking you can have either 1st or 3rd... and might allow either module wide.

And the biggest thing to me is there isn't any power gaming. You're gonna start off at the bottom of the food chain - and if you survive you might make it big. You don't know the guys up top from the start... don't expect to get into Dante's Inferno... don't expect to know Harlequin, or anyone else really. You've gotta earn your contacts, and you've gotta earn your right to call yourself a runner. And if you think you're really hardcore, you can start off as a Renraku employee working in the Arcology at the time of the shutdown - you make it out alive and you're going to have to find a new line of work, and so running the shadows after your harrowing experience might just be the best route to go. The NPCs all have likes and dislikes, and "emotions". You might be able to get one to like you enough to want some sort of relationship - to take em back to the apartment... of course you've got to own one first. You can have a seperate safehouse, you've got to eat, and rest, and drink... otherwise bad things will happen... such as death. And there is weather - dynamic of course, so you never know when it will, and when it does if you're out in it it will have an effect on you... hours out in the cold rain will take their toll.

Beyond all this, it's fun to play with other players. We did a server test last night around the Reraku Arcology area, I placed a few halloweeners to test combat, and when we survived that fight we tested PVP. It really was fun - I'm honestly extremely pleased that everything works that well. So, believe it or not. This game is going to be as much like 3E Shadowrun as possible, down to the smallest detail. And although I can't rewrite the engine it runs on, it is possible to have SR. And it will be a MMORPG - provided we can get donors for the server costs (otherwise it'll be a 8 player server heh).

An MMORPG sounds awesome. I'd gladly pay money for it, albiet not much.
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