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> Unarmed versus vehicles, Silly question until that STR 10.
frostPDP
post Apr 25 2005, 04:53 AM
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What exactly ARE rules for damaging vehicles with unarmed combat? What about lifting them over?

A powerful blow with Killing hands is really just a very powerful blow, considering I don't see magic reacting to a car door that much. But how much strength IS strength 10?

The barrier ratings are hard to handle. Silly almost, when compared with damage to vehicles. Main reason: I don't see "vehicle metal" anywhere.

But that's aside from the point. Strength 3 is average human. Strength 4 might be a well physically fit guy, and strength 5 a very well fit guy, professional athlete and whatnot. Strength 6 is like Arnold used to be, and truth be told I could picture him putting a hand through a car door with a wound up punch. But maybe that's overestimation.

Still, being a good 4 points above THAT? If a decrepid old lady under adreneline rushes can lift a car (She had to be, what, strength 2?) then this guy could possibly lift and throw said car!

So what are the numbers? Are there any? Surely a STR 10 Adept can't put his hand through a Citymaster of a tank. But a Ford Americar? I say: Yes.

Lifting a citymaster, not necessarily putting a hand through it? I dunno.

So what is it? :)
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amadeus
post Apr 25 2005, 05:27 AM
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two spots that I hope i can find, give me a minute...

<flips through books...>

(for lifting)

page 62, R3R, body rating table, gives appox. weight for a given body, and some examples...
and
Hauling the load, page 274 main book, gives rules for encumbrance (ouch D&D flashbacks) and how much a character is trying to lift... also you can look at page 11 C&C, improvised melee weapons for throwing it... not sure this applies tho.

For doing melee dmg to a drone, I have no clue what you would do with that.... what would the drone/rigger roll?

[edit] also barrier rating table page 124 BBB, hardened material (vehicle armor I think) = 32 barrier rating, I think this may applies, but.... I am not sure [/edit]

amadeus
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Syd
post Apr 25 2005, 05:54 AM
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You'd just resolve Killing Hands just like any attack. Have the car resist a STR(lvl) attack. It wouldn't be consider AV, so the car gets double its armor rating. If the car has 6 Armor or more, it has no effect whatsoever.

I'd guesstimate the (plain jane) car barrier rating to be 8 or so, if you want to figure out how much you punch through.

As for lifting/rolling/throwing cars, there are rules in the gear section for how much a character can carry. The max someone can carry is STR x 20 kg. If it were my game, I'd say that you can straight-up lift 2 times that. That's 880 lbs of lift...probably not enough to flip most cars (mine weighs 2900 lbs).
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 25 2005, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE (frostPDP)
Strength 6 is like Arnold used to be [...]

Nope. Considering that you can get your Strength up to 9 even without the Exceptional Strength Edge, I think it far more likely that Arnie had STR 8 or 9 at best. In World's Strongest Man competitions (contestants being STR 10 and STR 11 mostly), they have events like carrying a (very small) car with the windows, roof and floor removed, and they have to carry it on their shoulders for a short while -- there'd be no way in hell they could lift those cars completely off the ground without standing in the middle of it with that special harness.

Based on how much those guys are grunting even in this event (they only have to hold a sedan in that position for a while, not move it or anything), I'd think flipping over a car (that weighs as much as sedans today, over 1000kg) is something best left to characters with over STR 15. And yes, I realize you'd lift it from the side to flip it, but I don't think people who can only lift the back end of the car a bit off the ground for a short while would manage flipping it from the side.

Punching through a car door -- assuming he doesn't hit a crash bar or a similar more rigid part -- might well be possible at that point. After all, it's just a thin plastic shell plus whatever's on the inside. What would that accomplish, though? Other than scaring the crap out of someone.

Syd: Remember, the Power would be halved and the Damage Level lowered by one when attacking a vehicle without an AV weapon (sr3.149). The vehicle would be resisting ((Power/2, round down) - (2 x Vehicle Armor)) Light. Against a STR of 10, the vehicle would only need 3 points of Vehicle Armor to negate all the damage -- which is only fair, since that's about the equivalent of ~3mm armor steel, enough to stop a Light Pistol but not quite yet an Assault Rifle firing FMJ.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 25 2005, 06:18 AM
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JaronK
post Apr 25 2005, 11:30 AM
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Considering humans can't get over S9, I really doubt that compitition represents S10 or 11.

JaronK
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 25 2005, 11:42 AM
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Yes they can, without any technology or magic either. Exceptional Attribute Edge, page 17 of the Shadowrun Companion.
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Demosthenes
post Apr 25 2005, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (JaronK)
Considering humans can't get over S9, I really doubt that compitition represents S10 or 11.

JaronK

Exceptional attribute = Actual maximum attribute of 11
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ElFenrir
post Apr 25 2005, 11:49 AM
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I think some of those Strength scores in SR though, are just a little bit better than a human of today in real life, though. I think I remember another STR rule(Fields of Fire i think it was in?) that a character can dead lift STRx25 Kilo, plus Str d6 additional kilo or something. I don't have FoF here with me, but I think it was in the back somewhere. I think they could do this over their head, but could only stagger around with the weight.

That means a person with Str2(underdeveloped), can put up to 62 kilo up in a dead lift...that's over 135 pounds. The average(Str3) person can put up to 93 kilo over their head...that's over 200 pounds. Pretty good for an average person, and a lot more than the typical avg person I know. But then again, it's a game, the people in 2064 might just be a little tougher than our soft, lazy counterparts :D

But for Barrier Ratings and vehicles i guess the typical barrier rules would be in effect for unarmed combat, or melee combat. Of course, for Melee, Dikote helps out a lot here, if you need to attack a vehicle with something. Smashing Blow adept power helps with barrier destruction as well.

One of those things that's good to know if you are in a group that doesn't have access to AV technology and needs to trash a car for some reason.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 25 2005, 11:56 AM
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For 3rd Ed SR, the Lifting rules are found in SR3Comp, page 47. A character can deadlift 25kg x STR without a test, or 12kg x STR over his or her head. Looking at those figures, it doesn't seem like the average person in the 2060s is any stronger than in 2005.
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ElFenrir
post Apr 25 2005, 11:58 AM
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Those numbers do look a bit more accurate. I don't have my SR comp with me either, so I forgot about the adjusted numbers. Those olf FoF numbers WERE a little excessive it seems...
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hahnsoo
post Apr 25 2005, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir)
Of course, for Melee, Dikote helps out a lot here, if you need to attack a vehicle with something.

A brief note: Dikote no longer halves Barrier ratings for the purposes of melee combat. You still get the +1 Power (and +1 Damage Level for edged weapons, which is counteracted by the doubled barrier rating against edged weapon attacks).
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ElFenrir
post Apr 25 2005, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE
A brief note: Dikote no longer halves Barrier ratings for the purposes of melee combat. You still get the +1 Power (and +1 Damage Level for edged weapons, which is counteracted by the doubled barrier rating against edged weapon attacks).


Ahh, how far out of the loop am i? I play SR3, and used Dikote but never attackd a vehicle myself with it. So i never read the real deep rules on it. (Keep in mind, we learn all the basics, but leave the other rules for when the situations arise).

I guess if insisting on attacking a vehicle with an edged weapon, Dikote still helps a bit, and if you are gonna do it, hit it up with a katana or, even better, a combat axe or polearm(best chance of damaging it. Str +4 D for a Dikote polearm would be bad vs. anything.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 25 2005, 01:42 PM
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Dikoted melee weapons work against the normal Barrier Rating (mm.111), instead of 2 x Barrier Rating like melee weapons in general, so Dikote effectively halves BRs for melee weapons only.
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BitBasher
post Apr 25 2005, 02:24 PM
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But aside from the power/damage level increase dikote does absolutely nothing special to vehicle armor.
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Nikoli
post Apr 25 2005, 03:06 PM
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Well, my uncle, by no means a strong man, once lost his temper at his VW Bug. He proceeded to total it with his bare hands, banging away at it. This is a story my parent told me (I had a similair temper in high school). Admittedly a VW Bug is not an armored SR worthy vehicle, but a human can destroy a car with no more than his bare hands, if he'l motivated enough.
i have no clue if he went to the hospital for busting his hands, though I'd say it's safe to assume that if my parents weren't total liars onthe subject, then yes, he went to the doctor to get patched up.
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ElFenrir
post Apr 25 2005, 03:13 PM
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Well, a human with an aluminum baseball bat or sledgehammer can smash up a car pretty good. Especially with a sledgehammer, give em a few minutes and they can cause some serious damage.

But notice how I said a few minutes. One hit ain't gonna blow the thing up.

And again, this is a normal car, not a pimped out SR rigger vehicle.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 25 2005, 03:18 PM
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Does the tale include specifics about what parts your uncle broke on the VW, and whether the car would still run? I would think you'd have to hit a car pretty fricken hard (punch through the engine block?) to actually disable it, but smashing up the body of the vehicle and breaking all the windows would certainly be possible.
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Apathy
post Apr 25 2005, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE
Well, a human with an aluminum baseball bat or sledgehammer can smash up a car pretty good. Especially with a sledgehammer, give em a few minutes and they can cause some serious damage.

Back when I was in college we used to get old cars from the junkyard and then let people buy tickets to smash em up with a sledgehammer. The old steel-body cars held up pretty well. You could beat the crap out of the body, but it didn't really affect the ability of the car to drive much. About the only vulnerable component that could really stop the car in it's tracks was the radiator - the rest was just cosmetic stuff. Would probably be a different story if we let the people lift the hood, though.
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Nikoli
post Apr 25 2005, 03:28 PM
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IIRC, the engine and the transmission were the only thing not broken. He was pissed, but he wasn't the hulk. And no, the car did not run, and had to be hauled, noisily, onto the bed of a tow-truck
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Mac Swift
post Apr 25 2005, 03:39 PM
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A few years back a player of mine decided to try and punch a hole into a concrete wall with his bare hand. He had high STR, but no magic or cyber enhancement. His STR and the barrier rating of the wall were way higher than the barrier rating of his bones, so after failing a TO roll, all he got was a fractured hand. :D
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Nikoli
post Apr 25 2005, 03:51 PM
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Which is appropriate.

What's sad is the number of times I've had players go through the wall of a room than the door, because the barrier rating on the door was that much higher.
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RangerJoe
post Apr 25 2005, 04:03 PM
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Regarding unarmed attacks against vehicle/drones, unless I'm mistaken, you can't do stun damage to a vehicle/drone. Which is to say, you better be bringing your knife if you want to total a car with melee attacks....
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Wounded Ronin
post Apr 25 2005, 06:39 PM
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Hah. Stabbing a car causes damage, but hitting a car with a baseball bat dosen't actually damage it.

YAY REALISM!
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SpasticTeapot
post Apr 25 2005, 06:48 PM
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What if the PC in question was not trying to simply bash in the side panels of the car, but flip it? With an adept with suitably large amounts of strength (Troll with assorted edges=14 str), speedy reaction, and lots of points in unarmed combat and counterstrike, it's not impossible to simply lift up one corner of the front bumper as a car is driving twoards you, flipping it on its side and sending it off in another direction entirely. Remember, you don't really need more than 350kg of force to lift one corner of a car due to leverage; however, once one part has been lifted, the inertia of the car would finish the job for you.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 25 2005, 06:59 PM
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Unfortunately for the troll, 3433 Newtons of force does not answer the question. The difference between flipping a speeding car and getting a bumper in the groin is also dependant on how fast you can apply that force to the car. If the car is approaching at 1m/s (speed of 3), the troll would need to be able to provide the whole force in one second (using the point of reach to determine the time available). If we get a car that could do some damage, (speed 21), the troll must apply the force in a seventh of a second.

Unless the troll is traveling away from the car on a sled such that the relative speed of the car is under 6, I don't think it has a chance.
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