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> Revolver vs Automatic, What are the advantages?
DrJest
post Apr 30 2005, 11:03 PM
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On the face of it, the automatic has all the advantages; clip size, rate of fire, reload time (although I realise speedloaders can make that distinction less noticeable).

So what are the advantages to using revolvers? I ask because I'm considering a gunslinger adept packing a revolver or maybe two, and although in-game the distinction is really not that big I am genuinely curious what the advantages would be IRL.
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Arethusa
post Apr 30 2005, 11:07 PM
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Reliability, lack of ejected casings, higher powered loads (especially in SA pistols) because of the lack of limited grip length, and personal preference.
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DrJest
post Apr 30 2005, 11:11 PM
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Cheers mate, I knew I could count on you guys :)
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hyzmarca
post Apr 30 2005, 11:11 PM
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Revolvers are cooler. Other that that, nothing. However, if you have more bullets than you have clips it is faster to reload a cylinder than it is to reload a clip.

It would probably be easier to justify your tricked out 10M burst fire revolver to a GM than a 10M burst fire autoloader, as well.

Remeber, if you rely on revolvers then a crazy cyber-ninja will eventually cut off your hand.
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DrJest
post Apr 30 2005, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE
It would probably be easier to justify your tricked out 10M burst fire revolver to a GM than a 10M burst fire autoloader, as well.


I am reminded of Deadlands... the huckster hex that let your revolver fire in bursts, coupled with the one that reloaded it from bullets in your pocket...
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The Grifter
post Apr 30 2005, 11:42 PM
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Revolvers main strength is it's ease of use, reliability, and some models are able to accept multiple cartridge types. They are (typically) slower to reload than an autoloader, and carry less ammunition, but I know I would've taken my Taurus .45 revolver over the P.O.S. Beretta M9 I was issued in OIF any day of the week.
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SpasticTeapot
post May 1 2005, 12:49 AM
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I don't know jack about guns, but I do know that revolvers tend to be a bit harder to gum up or break than semi-automatic pistols. Let's face it; a basic revolver has maybe 10% the moving parts of a modern semi-automatic pistol, and most of them are pretty large. I also have little doubt that blowback and other such mechanisims work oddly under some circumstances; even if one had ammunition that did not require oxygen (or was VERY reactive), gas-based mechanisims will likely not function under the increased pressure.
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hyzmarca
post May 1 2005, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
I don't know jack about guns, but I do know that revolvers tend to be a bit harder to gum up or break than semi-automatic pistols. Let's face it; a basic revolver has maybe 10% the moving parts of a modern semi-automatic pistol, and most of them are pretty large. I also have little doubt that blowback and other such mechanisims work oddly under some circumstances; even if one had ammunition that did not require oxygen (or was VERY reactive), gas-based mechanisims will likely not function under the increased pressure.

Actually, a revolver has more moving parts than an autoloader. Pulling the trigger not only has to cock and relase the hammer, it also has to turn the cylinder. This means that it must have many tiny interlocking parts that move at the same time with perfect percision.

With an autolaoder fails it is ususaly because a round wasn't loaded or ejected properly for some reason. This is easy enough to fix, just manually clear the chamber.
A revolver fails much less often, but such failure can be more catostrophic.
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Arethusa
post May 1 2005, 02:23 AM
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Revolvers don't have 10% the moving parts of an automatic. That is a gross overstatement. But more parts and more prone to catastrophic failure than an automatic is just as wrong. You're also confusing double action revolvers with all revolvers. Also, no ammunition requires oxygen. You can fire any modern cartidge in a vacuum, underwater, whatever. They may not be very useful that way and the gun being fired may or may not cycle (or even survive being fired), but any modern firearm will function in the absence of oxygen.
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The Grifter
post May 1 2005, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE
A revolver fails much less often, but such failure can be more catostrophic.


Pull the trigger, rotate the cylinder, and your revolver's ready to rock again. What's catastrophic about that?
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lorthazar
post May 1 2005, 03:37 AM
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Ever seen a cylinder crack in half. Or a top strap disintegrate. I have seen both. not fun.
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Raygun
post May 1 2005, 08:10 AM
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That would almost certainly be the fault of whoever was putting the ammunition into the gun. Especially if they were handloading.

Fault count: Dumbass, 1. Gun, 0.

A modern Smith & Wesson double action revolver (686) has 80 parts. A Glock pistol (17) has 34 parts, including the magazine.

Revolvers are generally considered more reliable because A) they do not depend on the ammunition in any way to cycle to the next round, and B) generally speaking, more attention is paid to the function of the magazine (in this case, cylinder) during the design of the firearm. Revolvers cylinders are integral to the firearm, whereas box magazines are (often for the worse) considered more or less disposable. A good magazine makes a lot of difference.
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Krazy
post May 1 2005, 02:08 PM
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having used both I think one of the only advantages of the semi is that you can take your unused ammo with you, with a revolver a combat reload dumps good ammo on the ground that you may be able to go back and get. as far as anything else goes, I think that they are about even as far as reliability goes, (all other factors being equal) with speed loaders realoding is not hard and is very quick, but I still prefer a magazine, less things can go wrong
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The Grifter
post May 1 2005, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE
with speed loaders realoding is not hard and is very quick, but I still prefer a magazine, less things can go wrong


Let's see:

The speedloader retains a full cylinder's worth of rounds, which are released from the speedloader with a push-button style mechanism. Worse that can happen is the speedloader fails to releae the ammunition, which is highly unlikely due to it's simplicity.

Magazines are notoriously fickle, especially government mags, and require alot more cleaning and maintenance. And if sand even decides to get near your magazines (which it will, thanks Murphy!) they are frickin useless.
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FrostyNSO
post May 1 2005, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (Raygun)
A good magazine makes a lot of difference

QUOTE (The Grifter)
Magazines are notoriously fickle, especially government mags, and require alot more cleaning and maintenance.


From what I've experienced, a bad magazine is about the most common reason for a failure to feed in an automatic.

QUOTE (Krazy)
having used both I think one of the only advantages of the semi is that you can take your unused ammo with you, with a revolver a combat reload dumps good ammo on the ground that you may be able to go back and get. as far as anything else goes, I think that they are about even as far as reliability goes, (all other factors being equal) with speed loaders realoding is not hard and is very quick, but I still prefer a magazine, less things can go wrong


There are all sorts of "combat reloads", dependant on the situation at a given time. I believe Krazy is referring to a tactical reload, or a "topoff" reload (inserting a fresh, full magazine but not discarding the old one in regards to automatics). Much easier to do with a weapon that takes magazines. Difficult, but not impossible, for a revolver, just takes longer and you have to try not to drop your unused rounds while you fumble with everything else.
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Krazy
post May 1 2005, 04:54 PM
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yes tactical was what i meant as opposed to the "oh shit" reload. As far as problems with speedloaders, I had one dump on me during a fire course. not fun to have to still make the course while hand feeding spare rounds out of my pocket, granted that doesn't happen often, but the fact that it can, and is likely to happen the more the loaders get tossed around (mine were locked in a pouch, not just dropped in a pocket) isn't reasuring. and of course I wouldn't willingly go into a combat stuation with a mag that wasn't tested and tuned, IG I presume that some characters depending on background would have the background to make sure theat their gear was up to snuff.
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Grinder
post May 1 2005, 05:22 PM
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Personal preference, i guess. My chars prefer autmatics, like the good old desert eagle or the classical ares pred, but there are es well chars who chose revolvers.
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Raygun
post May 1 2005, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (The Grifter @ May 1 2005, 02:13 PM)
Let's see:

The speedloader retains a full cylinder's worth of rounds, which are released from the speedloader with a push-button style mechanism.  Worse that can happen is the speedloader fails to releae the ammunition, which is highly unlikely due to it's simplicity.

These days even the good old HKS-type speedloaders are a bit outmoded by simple, stamped metal or plastic disposable clips that can hold either a full magazine or half a magazine at a time. Given, most revolvers have to be very slightly modified to use them.

QUOTE
Magazines are notoriously fickle, especially government mags, and require alot more cleaning and maintenance. And if sand even decides to get near your magazines (which it will, thanks Murphy!) they are frickin useless.

Well, that would depend on the design and construction of the magazine and the amount of sand.

Government magazines, specifically those for the M9 pistol, are utter shit, I agree. They have a gritty finish on them that's designed to prolong the life of the magazine body, but also gives sand something to grab onto and get stuck in, binding the follower to the mag body as rounds are pushed up to the action and the double stack converges into a single feed. The commercial magazines you get with a Beretta 92FS are of vastly superior construction, and at least as far as I've seen, aren't anywhere near as finicky. Of course, there's only so much sand they'll cope with before they ass-out, too.

In comparison M1911 magazines, being single stacked, are not quite as picky from the get go. But still, some mags are better than others.

QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
From what I've experienced, a bad magazine is about the most common reason for a failure to feed in an automatic.

Same here.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 1 2005, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Reliability, lack of ejected casings, higher powered loads (especially in SA pistols) because of the lack of limited grip length, and personal preference.

That's pretty much it. If you jam you don't need to rack the slide back. Just keep firing.

It's preference, too. I actually like revolvers for recreational shooting simply because I often find them more comfortable to grip.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 2 2005, 06:09 PM
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OK, I just had a thought.

If you're going with a gunslinger who uses two revolvers, why not go all the way and houserule in some blackpowder Colt Single Action Army revolvers?

I hear they're pretty accurate at, like, 50 feet, but I have never used one. They're still plenty dangerous to be shot by. I think Raygun has written up stats for them.

The best part, of course, is how you have to eject the casings singly before reloading. I sure hope you have quickness 6.
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Edward
post May 2 2005, 06:33 PM
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If your going as far back as black powder you may as well not bother against the body armour of the 2060s. they may have unusually good accuracy but penetrating power on black powder weapons was low compared to today and I always assume that by 2060 there has been another improvement (and improvements in armour also).

If your saying reasonably accurate at 50 (17m) I am thinking that you could model a reproduction with modern ammunition as a heavy pistol with the extended barrel option.

Edward
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shadow_scholar
post May 2 2005, 06:36 PM
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While I'm not really adding to the topic, I had always wanted to make an old Gunslinger type character who used a pair of these:

Webley-Fosberry automatic revolver

edited to add: **WOOT!! I finally made "Moving Target"!
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Shadow
post May 2 2005, 06:57 PM
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In my personal experience (ie no scientific accuracy, or articles written by brains) I have noticed that Revolvers tend to be more accurate at long ranges and pack a bigger punch. I have also noticed that they are easier to "get on target" then a Automatic.

Having said that I vastly prefer automatics like the Walther P-22 and the Glock 20. Easily two of my favorite guns in the world. And neither have ever failed on me (after putting thousands of rounds through them).

I did have a SW .44 mag for a long time before some bastard who will rot in hell stole it. I loved it, but it would not be my combat weapon of choice.
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Wounded Ronin
post May 2 2005, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)
If your going as far back as black powder you may as well not bother against the body armour of the 2060s. they may have unusually good accuracy but penetrating power on black powder weapons was low compared to today and I always assume that by 2060 there has been another improvement (and improvements in armour also).

If your saying reasonably accurate at 50 (17m) I am thinking that you could model a reproduction with modern ammunition as a heavy pistol with the extended barrel option.

Edward

Dude, pistols in general don't do well against armor, even a flimsy second chance vest. The basic armor in Shadowrun is strange because it only sort of protects you from "heavy pistols".

So, actually, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference whether you were loading modern 10mm or blackpowder .44 when it came to shooting someone in the armor, realistically speaking.

If we're talking in terms of Shadowrun, just give the blackpowder pistol a lower Power and let the rules handle it.
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Raygun
post May 2 2005, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Shadow)
In my personal experience (ie no scientific accuracy, or articles written by brains) I have noticed that Revolvers tend to be more accurate at long ranges and pack a bigger punch. I have also noticed that they are easier to "get on target" then a Automatic.

Unlike most automatic pistols, revolvers have a barrel that is not designed to move during recoil. Because more attention is generally paid to the magazine (cylinder) in relation to the rest of the firearm, a solid, concentric lockup between the firing cylinder and the stationary barrel tends to translate to better accuracy for a revolver. Also, revolvers often have longer barrels, thus a longer sight radius than most autos, which helps accuracy.

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
If we're talking in terms of Shadowrun, just give the blackpowder pistol a lower Power and let the rules handle it.

Yet another example of why it's not right to have power and penetration represented by the same number.

Black powder firearms may have relatively shitty armor penetration potential (that is mostly due to bullet construction, BTW), but they can certainly dump plenty of energy into something, as most are designed to fire a right massive hunk of lead, that, if no body armor is present, will very much so ruin your day.

Black powder cartridges can be loaded with a relatively small mass of smokless powder (with the extra case capacity consumed by a case filler such as Pufflon), which will allow the firearm in question to produce its original ballistics without a huge cloud of blue smoke being produced in the process. Most can also use modern jacketed bullets.
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