 Stats for a Tommygun, Ideas? |
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 May 1 2005, 04:45 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266  |
Anyone seen anywhere any stats/costs for Tommyguns?
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May 1 2005, 04:47 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
What kind of damage model are you looking at? Do you want Raygun's, Austere's, canon, what? And what kind of Thompson, for that matter? There were several models.
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May 1 2005, 04:59 AM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Conceal 3, 8M damage, SA/FA, 20 round straight clip, or 50 round drum, which also gives -1 conceal.
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May 1 2005, 05:03 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
There were also 30 round straight mags, and the M1 (and A1 variant) Thomspon lacked the vertical foregrip and ability to accept drums of the 1928 version. So, back to where we started: what Thompson and what damage model?
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May 1 2005, 05:27 AM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Well the term Tommygun implies the 1928 model. Which I suppose would also have an integral foregrip and fixed stock, so 2 points of RC.
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May 1 2005, 05:28 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
Basically like the Khar Thompson 1927 A1 Carbine. I would assume that there are a variety available, even if it is not common. Heck, I saw a dozen different looks at a recent gun convention, which gave me the idea. Honestly though, if you have more than one answer because there are more than one type, then I would like as much info as possible. As far as you know, do most or all of the Tommygun options use .45 cal ammo?
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May 1 2005, 05:54 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Unless it's a custom conversion (and I've never heard of one), they all shoot .45 ACP, yeah. There are a number of variations in the Thompson family, but honestly, most of them won't make any difference in terms of numbers. The 1928 gangster style had a vertical foregrip and could take 20 or 30 round double stack stick mags or 50 round drums. The M1 Thompson that got used in WW2 ditched the vertical foregrip and the ribbed barrel for a more curable (and far cheaper) straight wooden foregrip. The M1A1 used some stamped parts, simplified the sights, and maybe did some other things I can't remember; basically, they just made it cheaper to produce, though not cheap enough since teh fully stamped M3 was eventually adopted.
For obvious reasons, the military Thompsons are the most common. The 1928s are almost seen as different weapons because of the stark contrasts in the history attached to the two. In terms of stats, really, just remember that the 1928 had a foregrip and could take drums or sticks and that the M1s had a standard foregrip and could only take sticks (and they were cheaper). Besides that, go with Voorhees' stats. If you want to mesh with SR canon instead of Raygun's rules, make it do 7M instead. Differences between the 1921, 1927, and 1928 aren't really going to be numerical. |
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May 1 2005, 06:11 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
If they use 45 caliber bullets, then why would we use such light damage stats? The bullet is much larger than assult rifle ammo.
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May 1 2005, 06:27 AM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Yes, but its slower.
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May 1 2005, 06:30 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
If a single bullet from a Colt .45 pistol (if a Colt .45 isn't a classic Heavy Pistol, I don't know what is) hits you, how much damage do you think it will do, in SR rules?
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May 1 2005, 06:33 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
I was surprised to find that the Tommygun was almost as fast as the modern M16. The M1928 fires at a rate of 600-700 rounds per minute (http://www.home-guard.org.uk/thompson.html), compared to the M16, which fires at a rate of 650-750 rounds per minute (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm).
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May 1 2005, 07:21 AM
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#12
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I wouldn't think so. "Tommy gun" to me implies any submachine gun of the pattern devised by General Thompson, including the WWII-era M1 and M1A1 Thompsons that were modified from the original design in order to speed up wartime production. At least, they were called "Tommy guns" by soldiers, as just about every common long arm used during WWII had the type classification of M1 (M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, etc...). The first model, M1921, would be the quintessential Thompson SMG. It's the one you see in all the old gangster flicks, with the finned barrel, Cutts compensator, removable stock and vertical foregrip. These were manufactured in a single lot of 15,000 guns and all subsequent models until the M1 were built off of guns from that initial production run. The M1927 was restricted to semi-automatic fire only. The military M1928 discarded the forward grip for a conventional wooden foreend you see on later models. M1921, M1927 and M1928 models could use 20 or 30-round box magazines as well as 50 or 100 round drum magazines. The M1 model was simplified by omitting the Blish delayed blowback system in favor of straight blowback, as was the compensator. The sights were simplified, the barrels were not finned, the charging handle was moved to the right side rather than the top of the weapon, stock was not detachable, and the straight foreend of the M1928 model was used. The M1A1 was further simplified by omitting the hammer and moving firing pin, replacing them with a fixed firing pin formed in the bolt face. (Unlike most modern rifles and SMGs, all Thompsons fire from an open bolt. Thus, when the trigger is pulled, the bolt is released and driven forward under spring pressure, a cartridge is chambered and when the bolt closes, the firing pin impacts the primer, firing the round. Recoil then drives the bolt rearward and the spent case is ejected. When the trigger is released (in FA mode) the sear arrests the bolt at its rearward position and holds it there until the trigger is pulled again). Neither model could use the drum magazines, only the 20 or 20-round box magazines. Almost 1.5 million of them were manufactured during WWII. Here's how I do it: Model: M1921, M1928 Caliber: .45 ACP Range: SMG Conceal: 3 (+1 with stock removed) Ammo: 20, 30 (clip); 50 (-1 Conceal), 100 (-2 Conceal) (drum) Mode: SA/FA (M1927: SA mode only) Damage: 9M Weight: 5.5 kg (Loaded: 20 box: +0.57; 30 box: +0.8; 50-rd drum +2.15 kg) Cost: 1,100 ¥ (New Reproduction) Foregrip provides -1 recoil. Model: M1, M1A1 Caliber: .45 ACP Range: SMG Conceal: 3 Ammo: 20, 30 (clip) Mode: SA/FA Damage: 9M Weight: 5 kg (Loaded: 20 box: +0.57; 30 box: +0.8 ) Cost: 1,100 ¥ (New Reproduction)
By straight SR rules, it should do SMG damage, 7M. I give the .45 ACP a DC of 8M, but the Thompson gets an additional +1 because the barrel is twice as long (10") as the handgun the .45 ACP was designed to be fired through. More velocity, more energy, +1 power. Certainly arguable, but that's how I do it. |
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May 1 2005, 07:30 AM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Meh. We'll have to disagree there. Tommy Gun to me means fedoras and getaway cars. If he had asked for stats for a Thompson, I'd have been inclined to assume he meant the military model. |
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May 1 2005, 10:55 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
This? ;) |
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May 1 2005, 01:58 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Heavy Pistol, yes. Classic, no.
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May 1 2005, 02:06 PM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
By the 2060s, it'll be almost as old as the M1911 is now.
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May 1 2005, 02:09 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
That is a good point. But look how old the Glock series of handguns are, and they are not considered as classics.
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May 1 2005, 02:18 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Glock 17 was developed in 1980, one year earlier than work began on the original Desert Eagle. The first guns came out pretty fast, being in full production by 1981, while it wasn't until 1986 that Desert Eagles in .44 Magnum came out, and a few years still for the Mark VIIs and then Mark XIXs and the .50 AEs.
In 2065, the modern Desert Eagles will be 80 years old. That makes it older than the Browning HP 35 or the Walther PP, both of which could definitely called "classics". |
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May 1 2005, 03:10 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
I would have to agree that the Desert Eagle 50 is a heavier pistol than the 45, so no arguement about that. Honestly though, you get hit with either, and you are down. In both cases, standard ammo will hit the wall behind you when it's done with you.
Thanks Raygun (and everyone) for the direction. I am gonna stick with those stats. By the way, you guys think a Colt 45 standard edition would also be the standard 9M? |
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May 1 2005, 03:38 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I don't. And that's even before you get to the fact that 9M is a ridiculous amount of penetration for .45ACP ball.
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May 1 2005, 03:51 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Not really. I'm sure there're plenty of cases where people have been hit in the torso with expanding .45 ACP rounds and have managed to function for at least several minutes. The difference between proper expanding .45 ACPs and 9x19mms is that the .45 creates a wound channel about 15% wider, which means 15% more bleeding surface and a 30% greater chance of hitting something critical. A good load with the .50 would propably guarantee more than sufficient penetration while creating a wound channel at least 25% greater still than the .45 ACP. With non-expanding rounds, the difference between the .45 and the 9x19 is more noticeable, since the bullet of the former is 27% greater in diameter than the latter. Proper expanding ammunition should not over-penetrate by much, unless you hit a thin person or unobstructed at a straight angle. In any case, regardless of the caliber in question, the ammunition should be chosen such that the penetration is about the same (in the 12"-18" range), so differences in penetration between defense handgun loadings in .45 and e.g. 9x19 are first and foremost down to the bullet design. With non-expanding ammunition, just about any handgun will bore right through a human, maybe even two. Because of the greater kinetic energy/bullet diameter ratio, 9mm FMJs tend to penetrate more tissue than .45 ACP FMJs.
If I were GMing an otherwise canon game and that came up, I'd make the a .45 ACP handgun do 7M. With Raygun's ammunition rules, it's 8M. In my own game with my house rules, it's 9M/+3 to target armor (I think). |
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May 1 2005, 03:59 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I keep telling you to get a website (gr)! |
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May 1 2005, 05:25 PM
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#23
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
If you have the information done, atleast somewhat, i'd be happy to try and design something for you. It might not be the prettiest thing, but atleast iw ould be a website, as requested. This is, if you feel like you don't have the/inclination/knowledge to do it. If you just dont WANT the website, well, then i can't do much for you :D |
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May 1 2005, 06:22 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
Where can I get a copy of these "Raygun Rules?" I am intrigued.
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May 1 2005, 06:24 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Look at Raygun's sig.
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