 Stats for a Tommygun, Ideas? |
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 May 1 2005, 06:52 PM
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#26
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Mostly Harmless  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176  |
No. The 1911 pistol does 8M the way I see it.
The fact that the Power Rating has anything to do with armor penetration is what makes that rediculous, but you knew that already. Even 8M is a bit much in that sense. |
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May 1 2005, 08:01 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I think that the stats you give the tommy gun depends on how you want it to be. Realistic, or cinematic?
Realistic has already been given. If you wanted cinematic, I'd make it a 9M SMG with double uncompensated recoil, so it's sort of like a Ruger Thunderbolt with autofire but with a lot less concealability. This would be a symbolic movie-style representation within the context of the canon SR firearms values, where most SMGs do 6M base. |
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May 1 2005, 08:07 PM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
How the hell is that cinematic?
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May 1 2005, 08:11 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Because it has a lot of power, but it also is likely to spray all over the room and hit everything but the guy you're aiming for.
So you have two possible movie style outcomes: 1.) (less likely) Tommy gun victim dies of 12S+ base damage from a historical hail of .45 ACP vengance. Your character is obliged to stand over him and empty the 50 round drum at him while cackling evilly. 2.) The liquor bottles along the bar explode into glass fragments and large splinters of wood twirl through the air as the tables and stools feel your wrath. Meanwhile, the bad guy drops to the ground and covers his head. See? It's like an old gangster movie. |
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May 1 2005, 08:20 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I guess that is a very specific (and dull) cinema. Road to Perdition was much more interesting, even in terms of pure aesthetics— and much more realistic. I do like the idea of +3 power due to Extra History.
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May 2 2005, 04:14 AM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 2-May 05 Member No.: 7,369 |
Sounds like a good Robert Rodriguez movie to me. Hell, I'll go see it with ya.
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May 2 2005, 04:26 AM
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#32
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Yeah, but if it's an antique, shouldn't there be some application of SOTA rules?
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May 2 2005, 04:33 AM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
God, no. What kind of sick man are you?
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May 2 2005, 04:44 AM
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#34
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Heh. Much as I like the Tommy gun, both military and criminal, it's dated.
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May 2 2005, 04:46 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
The Tommygun will be around for a long time. I saw a number of new, fully working versions at a recent gun show, which leads me to believe that a piece of history like the Tommygun will be just as popular in 2060 as they were in the first half of the 20th century.
Hell, mine has a Smartlink II |
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May 2 2005, 04:49 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
So are the Samauri and Shamans, but they have their place in Shadowrun. Besides, they are good guns. |
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May 2 2005, 05:12 AM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Dated doesn't mean out of date. If you head to Haiti or any of the third world countries in South America, Central America, or Africa, you won't just find AKs and M16s from The Big Fight With Them Commies lying around. You'll also find tons of surplus arms from WW2. When Aristide got ousted, there were a number of pictures that came back that showed rebels armed with Garands next to other rebels armed with everything from AKs to M16 to MP5s to generic shotguns. Guns from WW2 are likely to stick around a while longer, and not because Kahr and Auto-Ordinance are catering to American collectors.
Just because the gun is old does not make it any less lethal, reliable, or effective than it once was. After all, a 1911 is almost 100 years old and is still one of the best pistols out there today. |
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May 2 2005, 07:35 AM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
When considering the power of the attack I think you need to consider that firearms technology will improve in the next 60 years, propellents will be com more powerful and better materials will be fount to make bullets out of. And the design of firing chambers may need to be modified to account for this
In SR the classic heavy pistol is 9M. Today the classic heavy pistol (whatever that is) is probably 7M or 8M When dealing with vintage weapons in SR you need to consider wether they will be able to fire modern ammunition (or even custom ammunition using modern propellents and materials). By way of example what would happen if you took one of the original old west .45 revolvers, well maintained and in good condition and loaded it with modern .45 cartridges with a full load? I don’t know, I am not a gun person, would somebody be able to enlighten us. Edward |
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May 2 2005, 04:52 PM
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#39
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
It basically comes down to kinetic energy and how much of it you need to perform a certain task. New propellants and bullet materials aren't going to make cartridges significantly more powerful than they are today without any other costs (for example, increased weapon weight, increased recoil, accelerated wear). Simply put, if you need a significant increase in energy and terminal effectiveness, you just plain need more bullet. The heavy pistols (read: defensive handguns) of Shadowrun aren't likely to be any different in terms of energy output than they are today, considering that the vast majority of threats out there have not changed (human, elf, dwarf) in terms of how much energy is required to stop them and how much recoil the average user can cope with. That's not to say that there wouldn't be more powerful handguns made to deal with bigger perceived threats (like Orks and Trolls), but those threats are unlikely to drive the market wholly toward more powerful handguns (as opposed to shotguns or rifles). Besides, there are guns made today or even some that have been discontinued that would fall into that defensive niche very nicely (10mm Auto, .44 Auto Mag, .45 Win Mag, .50 AE, .500 Magnum, etc...).
I gaurantee you that .45 ACP, loaded to the same pressures it was in 1905, will be readily available in the next 60 years.
Depending on the gun, it might blow up in your face. But that doesn't mean that you can't use less modern propellant (smokless instead of black powder) to acheive a result that will function well as a defensive handgun. Basically what has happened between then and now is that the volume of powder needed to produce the same result has been reduced, resulting in a smaller cartridge case. Thus, you get the .45 ACP as compared to the .45 Colt. The energy output is virtually unchanged (a difference of about 20 fpe), as there has been no need to increase it. |
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May 2 2005, 07:04 PM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
What your saying is that as propellent gets better they use less of it because you don’t need more kinetic energy and if you did use more then there would be extra recoil.
If this where true then I would expect the old gun to survive because the potential energy stored in eth new propellent is comparable to what it was designed to take. Although maybe something as old as that was before propellants got to the point where you reached optimal kinetic energy/recoil. This dose have one interesting implication for SR. the possibility of over powered ammunition that would at a relatively low nuyen cost (propellent is cheep compared to casings, bullets and assembly) provide a significant increase to power at the cost of increased recoil (probably using a similar system as high-C plastic rounds) that would allow somebody with a gun normally not suited to targets like trolls or light vehicles get some effect. Edward |
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May 3 2005, 12:23 AM
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#41
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
And the weapon could weigh more, as the action would likely need to made stronger to support the increase in chamber pressure (though that can be alleviated somewhat by making the rest of the gun out of lighter weight materials), and barrels would wear faster, assuming that more pressure is pumped through a bore of the same diameter (for example, .22-250 in comparison to .223).
As far as handguns go, ballistics have been comparable since the 1870s (.32-20 WCF, .38-40 WCF, .44-40 WCF, .45 Colt compared to .380 Auto, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP etc...), about 30 years before smokless powders became common.
If the gun is designed to handle the pressure, anyway. You could load a .45 Colt case to .454 Casull pressures with smokeless powder, but if you fire said cartridge in a Colt 1873 SAA, you're likely to be going to the hospital afterward. |
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May 3 2005, 02:03 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 189 Joined: 21-April 04 From: Usually in the Nexus Member No.: 6,266 |
I checked out your site last night, Raygun. I must say, I am impressed. You have done your homework. You just really into running, or do you work in the firearms business?
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May 3 2005, 02:06 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
Naw, he sells TV's at Best Buy. :rotfl:
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May 3 2005, 03:09 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
He's a level 17 Fighter who can dual wield Tommyguns without a penalty because of all those feats he's invested in dual wielding.
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May 3 2005, 03:39 AM
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#45
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I seem to remember him being an action figure…
~J |
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May 3 2005, 03:42 AM
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#46
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Nah, he only looks like the action figure (only cooler).
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May 3 2005, 04:27 AM
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#47
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Thanks for the compliment. :) Since I moved away from my group in Dallas a few years ago, an opportunity to play Shadowrun has been very sporadic, and I don't much like playing online, unfortunately. In fact, at this point it's been nearly a year and a half since I last played any RPG at all. Firearms just interest me, really. The more you learn about them you tend to find yourself learning about a slew of other things that relate to them. History, engineering, metallurgy, machining, psychology, hunting... A ton of different things. I'm not in the industry, but I do build or modify them for friends occasionally. It's just a hobby, one I thought that other Shadowrun players could benefit from. |
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May 7 2005, 03:26 AM
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#48
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
As for old guns still being around. I've seen working copies of BARs, Chauchats, british Maxiums and German 08's, all nearly 90 years after they were produced. There are all fully automatic guns and prove that if properly maintained the guns can work well long after they were created.
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May 7 2005, 04:48 AM
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#49
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
They have working chauchats now?
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May 7 2005, 09:33 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
:rotfl:
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