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Deamon_Knight
post May 3 2005, 02:37 AM
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OK questions about Drone riggers:

Your rigger has a VCR 3 and is plugged into his remote deck. He is sitting in his apartment, which is being attacked by some gangers. He has 3 combat drones and is in primary mode in one of them at the beginning of the combat turn. His base reaction is, say 5, so while rigging his initiative is (5)11+(1D6)4D6, and he has a result of 21, so he act 3 times, on 21,11,and 1. Say a ganger breaks into the room the riggers meatbody is in on 11, and the rigger spends a simple action to jump out of the drone and into captains chair mode. What happens to the riggers initiative? What happens to his drones initiative? His unaugmented init result was 6. Can he use his sidearm to blast the ganger with his remaining simple action on init 11? What happens if he is in captains chair mode preforming only mundane actions?

What can a rigger see in captains chair mode from his meatbody (or jacked in but not rigging a vehicle with a datajack)? Can he use purely mundane skills, like pistols, or is there a penalty?


Also, does anyone apply range reduction bonuses, like those from vision mag cybereyes, to riggers firing weapons while rigging? I ask because the sensor rules say while rigging, optical sensors can magnify (Rating x50) while rigging, and I need to be able to respond when someone asks me why they cannot get any bonus from this, especially if they have some huge modified sensors.
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BlackHat
post May 3 2005, 02:51 AM
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As far as I know when using capitains chair mode (Which you can do with jsut a datajack) you don't get any of the bonuses of the VCR, but none of its penalties either (like the RAS override)... using jsut a datajack, Rigger 3 says you get +1 reaction, but a +1 TN to anything other than controlling your vehicles.

So you can still sense everything around your meatbody - though mayb e with a little tougher perception checks. As for the vision magnification... I dunno what the "real" ruling is, but there are two ways you could go about it... one is to say that the vision magnification of the sesors (50x in your case) reduce ranges by that factor, before detrmining range... so shooting at something 50 meters away would be like shooting at something 1 meter away for a normal character - and obviously short range. Another idea would be to use a rule in SR3 that says that image magnification gear reduces ranges by 1 level per rating... sensor magnification is image magnification for the visual sensors... so that sensor 1 drone could reduce ranges by one level.
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Deamon_Knight
post May 4 2005, 05:46 AM
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Thanks Blackhat, but I think you do get your full rigging bonus to init when in captains chair. As for the range bonus, If you do think riggers should get a range adjustment, dosen't that make riggers Insanely powerful?
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cykotek
post May 4 2005, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE
To gain the full benefits of a VCR (Control Pool and increased initiative), both the VCR implant and rigger adaptation must be present. (Rigger 3 Revised, p 26).

QUOTE
Note that VCR bonuses do not apply to a rigger operation a remote control network through the captain's chair.  However, the rigger doing so still receives +1 Reaction for all vehicle related tasks, as well as a +1 modifier when performing any action other than controlling drones and vehicles. (R3R, p 27)


Those two sound pretty specific to me. Basically, if you're captain's chairing, you're not quite so quick. Gives some thought to perhaps downgrading that VCR for wired reflexes, or scoping for a synaptic accelerator.

I've only ever had to deal with a VCR 3 with what I'm about to say, so keep that in mind. Generally, if a rigger is jumped into a drone, and wishes to jump into another, as long as he spends the two simple actions to go from drone to chair to drone in the same phase, he gets to keep his initiative. The most he can do is throw out a free action to "quickly observe" to get a quick idea of what his drones are seeing, so as to make an appropriate choice. If he goes to captain's chair and does not continue to another drone, then his initiative for next pass is reduced by 10. So if, in 21, a rigger returns to the captain's chair and issues an attack command to a drone, then next pass, instead of acting in 11, he will act in 1. Similar to how a materializing spirit is penalized in initiative.

If the rigger is jumping into a drone or vehicle, he doesn't get the bonus until next turn. If he is dumped from a drone between his actions, reduce his initiative as above. I suppose, for VCRs of rating less than 3, you could reduce the initiative by a lesser amount (from 10 to 6 or 7 for a VCR 2, and to 3 for a VCR 1).

In your example, I would say that the rigger, if he is somehow aware of the ganger being in the room (highly unlikely due to the constraints of RAS overrides), then he could return to the captains chair and take a shot at the ganger at a +1. His initiative would then be reduced for the next pass to -9 (11 - 10 = 1 for the next pass, - 10 for the above-mentioned penalty), so he loses his last pass entirely.

On a secondary note, what would you say is the action to jack out of a vehicle without suffering dump shock? Normally, for a decker, jacking out is a free action resulting in dump shock, while logging off without dump shock is a complex action. The "return to captain's chair" action strikes me as pretty indicative of a "graceful log off" for a rigger, though, leading me to think a simple would be good enough to avoid dump shock.
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Edward
post May 4 2005, 01:13 PM
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Ok just how often dose a drone act.

Scenario
As a rigger I have 3 drones on my network. Designate SL1, SL2, SL3 (they are all steal lynx drones) I have a VCR3 and boosted refs 1making my initiative 5+2d6 or 11+4d6.

I am in captains chare mode, what is my initiative (5+1d6 unaugmented or 5+2d6 with boosted) and what initiatives do my drones act one

I am jumped into SL1, I will control SL1 based on my initiative of 11+4d6, SL2 and 3 have continuing orders, on what initiative will these orders be cared out.

I have given my drones a set of orders and disengaged from the network (RCD turned off) I am acting on an initiative of 5+2d6, when are my drones acting in accordance with there last orders.

Edward
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Link
post May 4 2005, 02:12 PM
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Re. VCR initiative bonuses in captains chair mode: SR3 giveth them to riggers, while Rigger 3 taketh them away. The answer to these questions depends on what version you use.

As for drones acting on their own initiative, from the next turn after the rigger exits the network, the drones would act on their own.. initiative. (ie. Pilot + 1d6)
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Kagetenshi
post May 4 2005, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (Deamon_Knight)
As for the range bonus, If you do think riggers should get a range adjustment, dosen't that make riggers Insanely powerful?

Riggers are already insanely powerful. I'd say they should, both because it makes more sense that way and because it gives a reason for manual gunnery to exist against most targets.

~J
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Deamon_Knight
post May 4 2005, 05:30 PM
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Thats Odd, I don't have Rigger 3, its strange that its so blatently contradicts SR3. Ed, I thought you couldn't use boosted with any VCR and that you only got your VCR int bonuses while rigging.

If you are considered "rigging" (full RAS override) while in captains chair, I don't understand the distinction some people make between drone rigger and vehicle riggers. Woudn't your rigger always be doing overwatch in the command vehicle outside while the drones run with the party inside? Otherwise wouldn't someone ALWAYS have to lug the riggers meatbody around?
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Edward
post May 4 2005, 07:07 PM
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It seems strange that a drone I am giving no instructions to acts twice as fast if I have an active (unused) connection than if I have no connection at all. And 4 times as fast if my entire attention is directed towards a different drone

Well it happens in games I guess.

Edward
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BlackHat
post May 4 2005, 10:00 PM
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The drone doesn't act twice as fast as anything. When in capitans chair mode, issuing a command is a complex action... so your drone doesn't act until you do, and then you can issue a single command to one or more of them. Even if htey are doing the same action every round (like fighting an opponent, or trying to gun something down) they still act when you do. I suppose the +1 reaction from using a datajack woudl apply, making both yo uand your drones act a wee bit faster, but not usually granting extra actions.

the only time they actually move faster is when you are using a VCR to control only one drone. When you are in the machine, (in a dorne in primary mode) it can move a hell of a lot faster. (depending on the rating of the VCR)
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Edward
post May 5 2005, 06:44 AM
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What initiative bonuses apply in captains chare mode.

Also look at this example.

I am jumped into SL1, I will control SL1 based on my initiative of 11+4d6, SL2 and 3 have continuing orders, on what initiative will these orders be cared out.

Although I am paying no attention to SL2 and SL3 if they are acting on my initiative they will have an initiative 4 times that they would have if I did not have a active communications network.

Edward
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amadeus
post May 5 2005, 08:13 AM
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Already, looked stuff up for myself, and I will give my two cents...

first thing, drones always act with the rigger as per

QUOTE
BBB page 157 Issuing commands last paragraph:
All drones in a remote-control network act druing the same Combat Phase as the rigger acts, whether or not a rigger is directly controlling them. The rigger acts first, then all drones follow.


When in "captains chair mode" a rigger uses their non-rigging ie usual initiative, as per

QUOTE
Rigger 3, page 27 first paragraph on the page:
Note that VCR bonuses do not apply to a rigger operating a remote control network through the captain's chair mode. However, a rigger doing so still recieves the + 1 to reaction to all vehicle-related tasks, as well as a + 1 modifier when performing any action other then controlling drones and vehicles.


So I was a little wrong, in captains chair, a rigger gets their normal amount of initiative dice, and their normal Reaction + 1, the bonuses comming from a datajack interface.

and we all agree that a rigger gets his full rigger initiative when driving a drone/vehicle "in the machine."

as for what happens after to your initiative after you switch modes? meh, I have no clue, IMHO as a Gm, I would say his initiative stays the same until next turn, however, this would allow a rigger to abuse the system by always using up two simple actions, one to pop out of the machine, and one to pop in the machine at the end of the turn... hmm, need to think on this one, :|

So,

@Deamon Knight, when a rigger switches modes, the drones act with him, they always act right after the rigger, what happens to his initiative, meh. I would say that if he had a sidearm near him, he could use it to shoot the ganger, but with the +1 because he is in captain's chair.

I would say a rigger can see a lot while in captains chair mode, think of the different reports from the drones as open computer windoes overlaying your sight, and maybe you can mask them, make them more see through. But I would apply the +1 modifier to perception tests just like everything else.

range reduction modifiers? hmmm, depends if you give range reduction modifiers to image goggles, I would say the image mag. works the same. Also I can't see being able to shoot better with everything made bigger and no crosshairs, thus I would say no, but that IMO.

@edward

in captains chair, 5 + 1d6, the drones always act with you.
again jumped into a drone, the other drones act with you, it is just a bitch to give them more commands,

but IMO, this is a little wierd because in one instance the drones go slow, (as in only 1 or 2 phases to act in), and in the other they have a lot more to act in...yea it's broken but hey, what isn't...

I think if you turned off your RCD the drones would stop acting, they may have their last commands, but they are getting no, and giving no updates... but as before for simplicity sake, they act when you do.

@link, this really complicates things, a rigger or sec rigger having to roll for each drone, gezz....

so it seems, if you are directly controlling a vehicle, then you get your rigged initiative, and for simplicty the drones act right after you, they just are harder to command. (but, even in captains chair, they take a complex action to issue a command)

.... SO yea, I guess it really pays to be "in the machine"

amadeus
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post May 5 2005, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE
All drones in a remote-control network act during the same
Combat Phase as the rigger acts, whether or not a rigger is directly
controlling them. The rigger acts first, then all drones follow.

SR3 p157 Issuing Commands

Seems relevant.

QUOTE
Even though he is in captain's chair mode, Rigger X receives his usual Initiative bonus, which allows him to add 2D6 to his Initiative roll (and act first). However, if Rigger X orders his drones to attack the transport, no drone can receive bonus dice from any of Rigger X's dice pools. Further, all drones would use their Pilot Ratings instead of Rigger X's Skill or Attribute Ratings for their Success Tests.

SR3 p154 The example in Captain's Chair Mode

Therein lies the contradiction between SR3 and R3.
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Bearclaw
post May 5 2005, 04:06 PM
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It seems the rigger should invest in a cheap, small drone with an SMG mount to guard his meat :)

PS, it does appear that all of your drones in the network will act much faster if you are plugged into one, as they all act when you act. I think that's a silly rule, and in my games will continue with the rigger getting his full bonus whenever he is using his VCR to remotely control anything. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense.
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Kagetenshi
post May 5 2005, 04:31 PM
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Indeed. Captain's Chair mode has enough disadvantages as it is, removing the init bonus makes it worthless for a Rigger.

~J
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Deamon_Knight
post May 6 2005, 05:43 AM
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So... What about a Rigger preforming mundane actions in Captains Chair mode? Possible? Or No? I though Trying to preform a mundane action while under the influence of a RAS override was either A: Impossible, or B: Possible, but only with a modification to the RAS override to allow you to experience both realities simultaneously, and with a +8 to the TN of any test.

captains chair mode, at least as is presented in the illustrations, seems to indicated Riggers commanding drones while running around, rather than oblivious to their surroundings. The presentation of "Drone Rigger" v. "Vehicle Rigger" also seems to suggest that one type of rigger is meant to be able to run along side his team rather than being slumped over the wheel of a command van somewhere off site.

So I guess it also matters if you are using Rigger 3 rules about captains chair mode. If is, the consensus is that the rigger must always end the combat turn in one drone to get his full VCR init bonus.

Doesn't that seem odd?

So, how do you guys handle it when you play?
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hahnsoo
post May 6 2005, 05:49 AM
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Matrix p19:
QUOTE
Acting in the physical world while an RAS override is active is quite difficult. Apply a +8 modifier to all physical actions and Perception Tests while affected by an RAS override.
So you can act in the physical world while under the influence of an RAS override, it's just difficult.
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