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> Buying Edges with Karma?, Okay, Stupid question, I admit, but....
Foreigner
post May 4 2005, 01:43 AM
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Greetings.

I was wondering.

The SR3 main rulebook isn't exactly clear on this; nor is the SHADOWRUN COMPANION.

Are characters stuck with the Edges/Flaws they receive during CharGen, or can they buy more later on?

Or is it strictly the GM's call?

I'm curious because I'd like to make my PC ambidextrous, if possible.

P.S. : Sorry, folks. As I said, I was a proofreader for several years. Although I was laid off almost 5 years ago, some habits are difficult to break--especially if you're obsessive-compulsive. :)

P.P.S: Arethusa--Flattery'll get you nowhere. :P

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This post has been edited by Foreigner: May 4 2005, 02:15 AM
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Arethusa
post May 4 2005, 01:45 AM
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The Companion is clear on buying flaws off at a later date. I believe it's 10 points per flaw point. I don't recall whether or not it's clear on allowing you to buy edges later.

PS PLEASE STOP DOING THAT.
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DocMortand
post May 4 2005, 01:49 AM
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Heh in my campaign this would fall under the "NO!" category in another thread. :)
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mfb
post May 4 2005, 01:52 AM
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the SRComp doesn't allow for buying edges, but 10 karma/point is what we normally use. isn't your character a physad, though, Foreigner? if so, i'd advise asking your GM if you can make Ambidexterity a power, 0.25pp per level (making it slightly more expensive at chargen than the actual edge). Ambidex is one of those things that makes perfect sense as an adept power.
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Crimson Jack
post May 4 2005, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 3 2005, 05:45 PM)
PS PLEASE STOP DOING THAT.

What's the problem with capitalization and bold? Out of curiousity more than anything else.

edit: and italics also...
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Arethusa
post May 4 2005, 02:12 AM
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IT'S ANNOYING, INSANE, AND UNNECESSARY.
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Crimson Jack
post May 4 2005, 02:18 AM
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I SEE.
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Foreigner
post May 4 2005, 02:18 AM
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mfb:

In answer to your question, he's a Magician's Way Adept. :)

--Foreigner
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Chibu
post May 4 2005, 03:07 AM
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uh, Ambidex IS a phys ad power...

It's called Enhanced Coordination (p 116 Awakenings) but, it works like any of the other increased skills, that is, you can o=nly have as many levels of it as you have in Ambidex.
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mfb
post May 4 2005, 03:11 AM
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that's kinda silly. why should you need to be naturally inclinded towards ambidexterity in order to take it as a power?
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scoundrel
post May 4 2005, 03:12 AM
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10 karma per point is ridiculously high. I would probably cut that cost in half if I were ever to make the option available.
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lorthazar
post May 4 2005, 03:33 AM
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Actually buying edges with Karma and a bit of money only makes sense. Of course it should only apply to those edges you could concievably develop. Thisng like Well Connected, Good looking and Know it, Pirate Family, Cracker, and yes even Ambidexterity
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hahnsoo
post May 4 2005, 04:35 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
that's kinda silly. why should you need to be naturally inclinded towards ambidexterity in order to take it as a power?

In "Fields of Fire" page 81, under 2nd edition rules, Ambidexterity was a skill. Your offhand penalty was determined by the difference between the combat skill that you were using and the rating of your Ambidexterity skill. This skill could only be bought during character creation at 3 Skill points per point of skill, and can be raised using the normal rules for General skills (in practice, most people bought it at 1 and increased it later using Karma, because it was cheeper). In addition, the standard +2 for using a second firearm still applied, so it was a virtually useless skill.

Thus, the adept power of Enhanced Coordination was simply "Improved Ability" for the Ambidexterity skill.

Two-weapon fighting was a Special Skill that corresponded to the particular weapons you were dual-wielding, and limited how much combat pool you could add to the test. So something like "Rapier and Main Gauche" or "Dual Kris daggers".
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Arethusa
post May 4 2005, 04:52 AM
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Wow. That is actually worse than the current ambidexterity rules. I did not think that was possible. I do think I just lost something like 30 bucks.

"No, you could not possibly have a worse set of rules than these."
"Wanna bet?"
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mfb
post May 4 2005, 06:58 AM
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wow.

at any rate. i don't think 80 karma is very expensive at all, when you consider what you're getting: -2 TN to all your two-weapon ranged attacks, plus 1 point in every off-hand armed melee skill for every point you have in a normal on-hand melee skill. a single armed melee skill at 6 means that the edge has just about half paid for itself--more, if your Str isn't 6.
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scoundrel
post May 4 2005, 09:26 AM
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It's really more a matter of relative cost. 10 karma is certainly not equal to 1 build point during character creation, and there's no reason why it should be afterwards.

Of course, if you want to make Ambidexterity a 16 point edge in your games, that's your prerogative. :)
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hahnsoo
post May 4 2005, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE (scoundrel @ May 4 2005, 04:26 AM)
It's really more a matter of relative cost. 10 karma is certainly not equal to 1 build point during character creation, and there's no reason why it should be afterwards.

Except that there is very little correlation between Build Points and Karma. A build point can be equal to a point in a skill (anywhere from 1 to 9 Karma), a point in an attribute (anywhere from 2 to 12), or an amount of resources (anywhere from 900 nuyen/BP to 70,000/BP). If you are using BeCKS, it's not so much of a big deal, since your Edges and Flaws are bought using Karma-equivalent points, and it sets a real Karma cost on how to purchase them*.

10 Karma for gaining a new edge or losing a point of flaws is a bit on the high side, but I would put that as the base cost of simply buying the flaw off or purchasing a brand new edge without doing any sort of associated roleplaying. In general, edges and flaws should be gained/lost with roleplaying or OOC negotiation with the GM/gaming group ("If my character spends a lot of time with yours, will you introduce me to your Friends in High Places", that sort of thing), and such interactions should result in either a reduction in the Karma Cost or no associated Karma Cost at all. The PCs in our group certainly gained extra contacts and extra enemies that way...

* This is why it is usually simpler in the long run to have the character creation mechanic and the character advancement mechanic analogous in some way. It's an advantage that GURPS, Champions, and other point-based systems usually have.
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scoundrel
post May 4 2005, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Except that there is very little correlation between Build Points and Karma.

Just because there's no exact and easily defined correlation doesn't mean that there's no correlation. Generally speaking, a character built with 1250 karma will easily be able to duplicate the abilities of a 125 BP character and still have buttloads of karma left over.

You can sacrifice points in such a way that makes the edge cost more than 80 karma, but that's usually not the case, and shouldn't be taken as so. Pretty much like how you shouldn't allow players to buy edges for 1 karma per point just because they could've chose to give up a bunch of level 1 skills.
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hahnsoo
post May 4 2005, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (scoundrel)
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Except that there is very little correlation between Build Points and Karma.

Just because there's no exact and easily defined correlation doesn't mean that there's no correlation. Generally speaking, a character built with 1250 karma will easily be able to duplicate the abilities of a 125 BP character and still have buttloads of karma left over.

I didn't say there was no correlation, nor did I imply that 1 build point was equal to 10 Karma points. I'm simply stating that there is a wide range of Karma values for a single build point depending on what you are spending it on. The rules state that to lose a flaw, you need to roleplay it and spend 10 Karma per Flaw point. The game makes it more difficult to "buy off" your flaws than it does for you to receive a benefit at character creation, and I believe this decision was deliberate. The rules also do not state an exact value for an Edge, but instead states that they should only be gained at the GM's discretion and through roleplaying.
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Edward
post May 4 2005, 12:58 PM
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Buy the book you can not gain an edge

Buy the book removing a flaw costs 10 karma per point of flaw and an good RP reason (witch may or may not include spending lots of cash in addition to the karma cost) this rate is not so much balanced as it is punitive, to stop yo loading up with flaws that wont matter for a couple of sessions and then buying your way out of them without a net cost. If the buy out cost was on par with eth benefit at the start of play you would at that point have no disadvantage over never having had the flaw. I believe it is justified.

I would allow the purchasing of edges with the same system (10 karma per point value and whatever in character actions the GM deems appropriate) again this is something that should not be common so it is discouraged with a high price tag.

Edward
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scoundrel
post May 5 2005, 12:05 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
I didn't say there was no correlation, nor did I imply that 1 build point was equal to 10 Karma points.  I'm simply stating that there is a wide range of Karma values for a single build point depending on what you are spending it on.

If that's the case, I don't recall ever saying anything to the contrary that would warrant such a statement.

Oh, and I know what the rules are. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with them. ;)
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fistandantilus4....
post May 5 2005, 05:26 AM
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I actually use the 10k/point in my game. Seems to work pretty well. They should havea hard time suddenly developing a photgraphic memory, and I think that 30 karma does that well. I don't allow buying apptitude though.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post May 5 2005, 05:29 AM
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Really? I'd be more willing to allow that before I'd allow Photographic Memory, Night Vision, or similar Edges.
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Critias
post May 5 2005, 05:41 AM
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Or do you just mean you don't allow taking Aptitude, at all (at creation, or otherwise)?
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post May 5 2005, 05:54 AM
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Oh, that whooshing sound was from above my head. Oops.
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