 FanPro D Newsletter May 2005, Otaku in SR4! |
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 May 4 2005, 07:58 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058  |
I simply mean, "plausible given what we know about how the SR world works". Clearly, a place incorporating magic and dragons isn't plausible in any sort of real-world sense, but you'd presumably have no problems if I complained about the plausibility of someone killing a great dragon with a sniper rifle, would you? (and "plausible" is so much easier to type than "it has verisimilitude".:)) |
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May 4 2005, 08:07 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
I really don't see any difficulties here with reguard to the poor. I envision not having a commlink as pretty similar to not having a SIN in the current SR world of the 2060s. IE, the corporate world saying: "You don't got one, we dont' want to deal with you." But as far as the cost of getting one...well there are already all kinds of price disparities in SR3 with necessary cyberware for sammies costing enough to feed families for years (so why even buy it). And Pocket Secretaries costing several 1000¥, yet everyone is supposed to have one...and other oddities. As far as the purists go, I could really see that happening. No fraggin' way would I want some piece of tech constantly broadcasting my information to anyone savvy enough to hack into it...let alone having a commlink installed internally (just so it can't be stolen). And then I would suppose those purists would run into the same problem as the poor when attempting to conduct day to day business. With the purist I could see a social attitude arrising against them much like it does today against people who choose not to have a TV or choose not to watch the latest and greatest shows. "What you do watch Survivor! What's wrong with you?"
Of course by 2070, the definition of "the Matrix" has apparently changed. But not by much. It is still used to gather and share information, its just that information takes on a much broader meaning. And as far as expense, that is relative; fifteen years ago it was expensive to have a website designed, now nearly anyone can do it, thus cost drops. Much like IC and system design in SR3, the good, unique, or interesting ones will cost a pretty ¥, but there are boring standards that anyone has access to for extremely low rates...I would imagine the same for most AROs.
Why not? Everything is wireless. The menu is broadcasted blocks away. This allows you to brouse the menu while you are en-route, call in the order on your commlink before you get there, and then by the time you arrive and are seated your food is ready. Although the purist would have a hard time as he sits down and politely asks the nearest server, "Excuse me, can I get a menu..." to which he is greated with confused stares...
And what about adding ARO takes away the "primary fuction" of the Matrix. It still does that, and on an even broader scale... |
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 May 4 2005, 08:13 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
Ah, ok...a bit of misunderstanding your words :) But of course what we know about how the SR world works could be radically changed. Either naturally so due to the most recent crash and an extreme glut of new tech to deal with the fallout (necessity is the mother of invention after all), or because the designers waved a magic wand and said "Abra-capocus"....I'd prefer the former...but would be upset by the latter.
Well gosh...I guess I would want to know was the bullet made of Oricalcum and fired from and enchanted oricalcum rifle...and did the shooter have high levels of physical adept abilities to raise his Rifle skill? 8) |
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May 4 2005, 08:19 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
PS: Why is it I get a very Ghost in the Shell feeling while reading the newsletter and the phrase "Hacked his cyberbrain..." keeps echoing in my head...??
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May 4 2005, 08:39 PM
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#30
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Odd. Technomancer screams to me of d20 Modern. Maybe because it's a class in it. Meh.
But, seriously, they're changing definitions. I can see why. In the 80s, a hacker was a very heavily used word that meant somebody who broke into secure systems illegally to commit (oftentimes) criminal acts. Now, a hacker is the same, though most people don't have the fear of a "hacker" that they did in the 80s. Now a hacker is just another "punk kid" that got his hands on some neato toys and poked at a few open ports. Then there's the switch from otaku to technomancer. Nowadays, an otaku is generally seen as some fat kid still living in his parents' basement watching subbed anime and eating nothing but pizza and chips, occasionally going outside to get to his friend's house to play D&D. When you say "decker" referring to one who uses a portable computer (laptop, anyone?) to compromise secure systems, people get confused. Now you say hacker and everybody gets it. When you say "otaku" referring to one who uses their mind to compromise secure systems, they think you're batshit crazy since everybody knows fat anime/dnd geeks don't do anything illegal. Now when you say technomancer, people ask what you mean and then they get it. I can see how the new terms will draw in new players, but that doesn't mean I won't miss them and occasionally find myself backtracking after using old terminology to explain something to somebody who has only played 4th edition. |
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May 4 2005, 08:46 PM
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#31
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, should i correct tanka about the meaning of hacker or not? nah, i dont feel like being that much of a pain...
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May 4 2005, 08:49 PM
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#32
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I know what a hacker really is, but most people don't know it. Most people think a hacker is some kid who breaks into secure systems and commits crimes.
I know a hacker is somebody that (more or less) codes. I consider myself a hacker in the fact that I code in a few languages and know a fair amount of "computer stuff." Do I tell this to people on the fly? No, I say that I'm a computer geek. Why? You say you're a hacker and people get all antsy and freaked out and probably consider calling the police. |
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May 4 2005, 10:10 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
if true, that would possibly be the stupidest thing i've ever heard in relation to SR4. |
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May 4 2005, 10:29 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118 |
Silence, you. When the day of the technomancer-magician-adepts (who aren't Leonardo, his telepathically linked uberdeck sounds suspiciously like the technomancer bare-brain hacking) comes, you will be the first against the wall !! |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 4 2005, 10:32 PM
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#35
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Guests |
Let me make it more clear, also. You made two fatal errors: One was a fallacy of assumption, and the second was the false analogy. You assume that the wording infers that there is no interface between Technomancers and the wireless Matrix because it says that they can interface with it through the power of their minds. That is pretty much the same description of Otaku as-is, but there is still an interface required for them to access the Matrix. Secondly, the Nanomancer concept you suggested is a false analogy because it builds on this apparent assumption to suggest that it should be possible for them or some other persons unknown to communicate with nanites without the use of any interface device, which goes back to that first error. BTW, I love how this comes much closer to proving my three speculations correct. Now I just need to find confirmation on the other one.
I find this rather disturbing insofar as the datajack has proven to be the most efficient method of interaction between the user and outside information. Sure, there will be commlink cyberware, but call me cynical but it's probably not going to be 0.20 essence for that. I don't doubt that 'jacks will still be around, but... it's so inefficient to appeal to people who don't have them to the same degree as the umpteen bajillion people with them in 3e or people who get cybercommlinks. Ewww. Just... Ewww. Unless they have wireless datajacks, which I see no reason for there not to be. That'd be an upgrade a long time coming. I mean, some other people here can attest to my optimal cybernetic communications suite, and the last thing that would go into a PC's brain pan would be the actual emitting device. I don't like the idea of an internal cybercommlink, but a DNI connection is a given for any hacker worth a piss. I also think it's a bit premature to talk about the demise of a system which by the mid-60s should have been able to provide power and voice/data connections through one cord (kind of like how it's possible right now). The damn battery cartel will have a field day, but to suggest those wires are just gone is just... stupid. How else are you going to recharge your commlink?
Blocks? It's put on the Matrix for anyone to Google, like now. The ARO is more convenient when coupled with GPS to provide a (literally) pointing arrow to a restaurant you've never been to before. I like that SR finally caught up to modern-day. I think it could be handled without a Crash or whatever System Failure is going to be. I had no problem introducing the commlink in my gaming and stories as a digital hub (Which as a term has only been around since at least when the iMac came out) with varying degrees of augmented reality saturation around. You don't need to kill the Matrix. They should have just killed the idea that rigging and decking aren't close enough to be synergized with almost no trouble back in Rigger 2. |
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May 4 2005, 10:48 PM
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#36
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Eh, I doubt it. I'd say that they're basically the equivalent to Otaku vs. Keckers in "today's" Matrix: one is dependent on *more* machines than the other is. Otaku still need a datajack and an ASIST converter; I imagine that Technomancers still require some sort of wireles link device.
As for the cost of a commlink, how many of you out there bought your cell phone? Now, how many of you, instead of actually buying the thing outright, got it "with new two year contract" basically for free, buying the phone on essentially a lease-to-own plan? That's where I see SR4 Commlinks going, for the most part: the vast majority of people that buy their Commlink did it by signing their life away to a provider for X number of years (5 would probably do it). Only the richest technophiles and those most concerned with getting a pay-as-you-go plan with no strings attached (read: Shadowrunners) would actually go around buying new Commlinks without the plan attached. |
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May 4 2005, 11:02 PM
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#37
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Looking past the hype, I'm dead certain they're not getting rid of datajacks entirely. You just don't need to physically tether yourself to the cyberdeck, and from the cyberdeck into the wall, to get your ARO to work. I can imagine in fact that most people will be doing what I currently do with my character: plug a DNI pocket secretary (Commlink) into their datajack and use that + image link to access ARO. The (until now) enormous Essence cost of any sort of implanted wireless transmitter will no doubt carry over to the 2070s, so I doubt we'll see the majority of people with a comm device actually implanted in their heads. This is particularly true as the technology for these Commlinks will be undoubtably be updating every few years or so--rather like cell phones nowadays--and the average person doesn't want to commit to going under the knife every couple of years. All you actually need to actually implant at the minimum is the mind-machine interface, and that means the datajack. Further datajacks will still be necessary for *real* Matrix interaction, with the RAS override and such, which isn't just going to go away. We hope, anyway; ARO is a great metaphor for interacting with things in close proximity, but it sucks if you're talking about stuff whose physical location is far away or doesn't exist. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 4 2005, 11:10 PM
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#38
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Guests |
I don't know. I look at the number of people I know or know of who bought the RAZR because it was cool, or the fact that just about every lawyer in the country has a Blackberry or something like it, or the jagoffs with the Sidekick II, or the people who used Gizmodo and Engadget like a catalog, and I think you might want to tone down the exagerration about "Only the richest technophiles" would have them. People buy all sorts of crazy shit that they can't afford, usually on credit. The entire U.S. economy is predicated on that fact. Oh, and I agree with everything you wrote in your second post. |
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May 4 2005, 11:30 PM
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#39
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
This thread has done nothing to allay my fears that the book coming out soon will not be SR except in name only.
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May 4 2005, 11:32 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
The problem with augmented reality is that it's not economically feasible to augment reality outside of heavily developed areas. I don't think you're going to go walking in the NAN wilderness and get a nifty little HUD display saying "Swainson's Thrush (Catharus ustulatus)" with an arrow pointing to a little bird sitting in the tree, which is itself annotated with "Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii)". So the degree of augmentation is necessarily rather limited.
Fortunately for "hackers" and "technomancers", most shadowruns take place around advanced technology, which will give them something to do. But the setting needs to acknowledge the limits of AR: it would be really hard to swallow that every species of beetle in Amazonia and every ancient, battered trid set in Africa has been labeled with metadata or outfitted with wireless matrix interface technology. |
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May 4 2005, 11:45 PM
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#41
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I don't see a shadowrunner wanting to walk around connected to the WWW all the time by his WiFi devices. It screams "follow my every move, track me where ever I go".
I would sacrifice the minor and completly mundane advantages of being connected to the world wide WiFi for the ability to not be tracked and hunted down by my shoes. From this point on all my characters are going to have a hobby of collecting old firearms to avoid the micro "tracking" computers in the modern ones. Or in other words, more lameness from SR4. *Waves bye to Shadowrun* *Waves hello to SR4/WoD/D20 modern game* |
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May 4 2005, 11:51 PM
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#42
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
You mean d20 Modern + Urban Arcana, I assume?
NEW RACES FOR SR! BUGBEARS, AASIMAR AND TIEFLING, OH MY! |
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May 4 2005, 11:55 PM
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#43
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well naturally. By the way, did you know that currently you don't get cell phone coverage on over half--indeed the majority, in fact--of the land area of the United States? How many people buy cell phones and still find them useful every day? Hype about, "ARO is everywhere!" of course implies "ARO is everywhere [important]!" I can gaurontee you there won't be any reliable ARO hubs in the Barrens, just like there's no reliable Gridguide in the Barrens. As for the "Everything has Wifi access" statement above, I'm almost certain that's going to be hyperbole, as it's not even close to necessary and indeed can be an incredibly bad move to have Wifi access on say a handgun or clothing. In the same way my "Only the richest technophiles" statement is hyperbole; all I was saying is that the majority of people probably won't buy their commlinks outright, in the same way that the majority of people didn't buy their cell phones outright today. |
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May 5 2005, 12:27 AM
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#44
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
sorry, im just in a bad mood whenever i read hacker lately in any similar context. the post should not have been made... |
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May 5 2005, 12:33 AM
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#45
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
It happens, I usually correct people when they use hacker incorrectly as well.
I was merely putting it in a "public light" manner, reading it as Joe Average would read it. |
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May 5 2005, 12:42 AM
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#46
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and about ARO (o? must have missed something, i cant figure out what that o is for) and using it to send out stuff like menus. think of it like the people that stand out on the street handing out small menus or similar to people that pass by.
sure you can put the menu out on the net and hook it to a gps location so that people can ask "where is a place to eat that serve x food and is close by?". but you may allso walk by it at some other time, get a small beep and a indication that the comlink have downloaded something, basicly the menu in electronic form. maybe you can leave a order while your doing other stuff and then get a message when its ready to serve or be picked up. there have been plans to outfit movie posters and similar with bluetooth devices that constantly send out a data signal to any passing device able to pick up bluetooth push traffic. only problem is that the signup time for bluetooth at the moment is to long for this to work effectivly. |
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May 5 2005, 01:05 AM
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#47
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
ARO = Augmented Reality Objects (though I like to think of it as "Augmented Reality Overlay", but it's the same thing)
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May 5 2005, 01:40 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,525 |
Why have the comlink beep when you walk by? Why not just have rendered examples of the food cooked inside, complete with smell if anyone is running hot enough to pick it up. Basically ARO allows you to create displays and signs that would be impossible otherwise. Sure if you want to actually query for the full menu you can, but advertising that attempts to push full information doesn't work. It is impression, stimulation, and direction that sells things.
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May 5 2005, 01:53 AM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, because corporations and governments have the processing power, time, and inclination to track down every minor threat that pops up--and runners will, of course, have no resources available to them to bypass or negate such telltales. and, as well, SSG doesn't detail technologies that can already do pretty much everything you're talking about, albeit at a less fine level of detail. |
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May 5 2005, 02:22 AM
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#50
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
it was the fastest example that i could think of :P till, having a simsense feed that plays a smell for those thats wired for that would be nice, maybe as a replacement for the beep for those that are wired. rember that you can wear contacts that overlay visual info rather then being wired for full sim so therefor you need to have multiple layers of getting the message thru. think of it this way, it draws your attention to something and you can deal with it at your own time (alltho knowing how most people react to text messages on their cell its a accident waiting to happen). thats the whole point. and with a menu (complete with real life images of the dishes they serve and so on. alltho its a message dont mean it have to be all text, we are talking sci-fi after all) transferd you can examine prices and so on when you feel like it (even if your in a area with matrix access as the menu is allready in your comlinks memory). think about the image of some runners on a job with some downtime: r1: hmm, anyone feel like getting some food after the jobs done? r2: sure, got any ideas? r1: well i got a menu on my comlink from a place we passed on the way here. food looks good and prices are ok. hey, they have a all-you-can-eat option that even allow trolls and orc! r3: sounds great, i need a proper meal. |
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