 Shooting at passengers, How much a vehcle protect them? |
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 May 10 2005, 02:01 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318  |
Well, one way to make the tank safer, would be to add wafers or fibers that release the fuel in only one direction. That way, even if the tank is ruptured, its only the cracked wafers/fibers that spill their fuel.
I too believe that a simple gastank, ala today, would be hard to find in 2065.. |
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May 10 2005, 03:48 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 7-April 05 From: Charlottesville, VA, CAS Member No.: 7,303 |
I don't have a copy of R3R, but how many vehicles are actually petrochem? I seem to remember somewhere that many vehicles in SR have switched over to fuel cells...
If that's correct, how safe are those? I understand that they're using hydrogen, which is somewhat flammable (that's sarcasm by the way), but how is it stored? |
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May 10 2005, 04:58 PM
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#28
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I was under the impression that the +8 arises when you know approximately where the guy is, but not precisely, which I think would apply in this case. It's a small target (2 feet) and you're not quiet sure if you're aiming for his chest or his left ear. This is even more true in the 2060's where riggers don't have to sit upright and look over the dashboard. Keep in mind though, the biggest threats are riggers, and riggers don't get to dodge or use their pool to soak if you're shooting approximately where their body should be. You've just gotta hit them, and they're pretty much tanked. Don't forget when shooting the gas tank, it has to mix with enough air or its useless. Put a match in a barrel full of liquid gas and nothing else, and the match will extinguish every time. |
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May 10 2005, 05:02 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Very thin, light layers of certain kinds of flexible plastics would minimize leakage even if the rigid fuel tank (although self-sealing in its own right) is ruptured. It's not even too incredible to have such a layer inside the rigid tank, contracting as the fuel is consumed to reduce or completely get rid of ullage and thus fuel tank explosions.
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May 11 2005, 01:29 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
I personally don't understand these rules. A 9mm round will penetrate a car door with enough force to kill you. Actually, most rounds above 9mm will pass through the entire car, engine compartment not withstanding, and kill someone on the other side. The only safe place is behind the wheels or the block. Granted most vehicles in SR are armored.
But then I never understood the barrier rules either. An AK has enough power to penetrate brick, stucco, 16 layers of drywall, or doors, all with enough power to kill someone on the other side. In SR simply standing on the other side of a wall protects you from all but the most powerful of weapons. F.I. |
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May 11 2005, 01:54 PM
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#31
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
And, while protecting you, giving you an extra +8 TN versus anyone shooting at you!
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May 11 2005, 02:07 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
In SR most walls tend to be the reinforced walls of corporate holdings..
A normal wall or those plastic instant houses in teh barrens are easy to shoot through. Only the visibility modifier is the problem, which is fair enough. |
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May 11 2005, 02:53 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Brick wall = Barrier Rating 4, 5 or 6 (Average through Heavy Material). Assault Rifle = 8M. Damage Code through a brick wall = 2M, 3M or 4M.
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May 11 2005, 03:50 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
That's also because the SS damage codes for SMGs and assault rifles are borked. |
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May 11 2005, 04:03 PM
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#35
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
In my experience no, it won't I've shot many cars both older and newer out in the desert here and with the exception of Saturns and other tupperware cars without actual metal panels a 9 mm nor a .40 will penetrate the doors reliably at all.
No they won't at all in my experience, unless you're shooting through the windows. Especially not with a hollowpoint or appropriate round that you'd be loading to shoot at human targets.,
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May 11 2005, 04:06 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Oh, incidentally, I know a guy who shot a hard drive with a .44 magnum. The hard drive blocked the magnum cartridge.
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May 11 2005, 04:11 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You wouldn't happen to know exactly what cartridge that was? (Maker, bullet type, bullet weight.) Although the design of the HD and the exact spot it was hit in likely affect the outcome a lot more. Hard drives do tend to have rather thick metal covers and plenty of metal bits inside as well, and the sandwhich-like construction with several thin (and thus flexible) metal layers will probably help.
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May 11 2005, 04:16 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
No, he never told me those details. |
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May 11 2005, 04:20 PM
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#39
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Early self-sealing tech was around in WWI, it involved a 3 layer fuel tank, outer-layer, un-galvanized rubber, then an inner layer. The rubber expands when exposed to the fuel and seals the hole for a while, though it's not a permanent fix as most petrol fuels will eat a good number of materials.
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May 11 2005, 04:30 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 176 Joined: 8-March 05 Member No.: 7,146 |
Fuel cells can also be made to use hidrocarbons, the advantage is that the slower reaction increases the reversability of the reaction and thus the efficency. As far as storage of H2 goes, either it is in compressed tanks, or physickly bonded in a carrier medum. In a compressed tank the disadvantages are 1: even compressed, a gass takes up a very large volume compared to a liquid and not much fuel can be stored, and 2: It dosent' matter if the gass is flamable or explosive, a ruptured tank of compressed gass is quite explosive. Physickly bonded to a carrier medium means the H2 is bonded to a liquid carrier medium untill released. This is much higher tech, but a lot safer and more can be stored. I may be mistaken, but I beleave this is a tech we currently don't have and are trying to develope. |
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May 11 2005, 04:31 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 7-April 05 From: Charlottesville, VA, CAS Member No.: 7,303 |
An amusing aside, hard drive disks aren't actually metal all the way through any more. They now deposit magnetic material on plastic disks.... it's cheaper that way.
How do I know this? Check out the worst hard drive crash ever: http://www.astro.ufl.edu/~ken/crash/ Back on topic: Even assuming that an AK could "easily" penetrate a wall, wouldn't your aim be thrown off something fierce anyways? I mean, it may not make a difference if your target is right up against the wall, but if they're even a meter or so away? |
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May 11 2005, 04:39 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Yes and no. Depending on the material and luck (or lack thereof), the bullet may be deflect a lot or not much at all.
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May 11 2005, 05:34 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
Then our experience differ greatly. In my experience as a body guard, I have seen the effects of various caliber rounds on vehicles, walls, door, steel plate, etc. ad nauseum. With anything more than 9mm there is very little"cover." An Ak will put lethal rounds through brick and block. A .40 cal. will blow through both doors of a vehicle. Think about it, a door is what, 30 thousandths aluminum? No way that will absorb the kind of Mo in a bullet. Consider the complaint of soldiers in Iraq. They need armor for their HUMVEEs because the door panels won't stop a bullet. Respectfully, F.I. |
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May 11 2005, 05:41 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
Absolutely, which should translate in higher TNs to hit rather than major reductions in weapon damage. But if you are firing blind through a wall, chances are you don't care about anything on the other side, right? So why not go full auto and rake the room? |
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May 11 2005, 05:42 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Those bullets are at the very least 7.62mm 123gr FMJs traveling at ~2300fps, which is not really comparable to a 9mm 124gr JHP traveling at ~1200fps or even a 10.9mm 240gr JHP traveling at ~1400fps. If only OpFor had the decency to only arm themselves with handguns... |
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May 11 2005, 05:46 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
If it were Shadowrun, they would, since handguns would have the almighty 9M damage code. They would be, like, better than assault rifles in SA mode.
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May 11 2005, 05:50 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
Yes, and how many players arm their characters with 9mm? Few if any. Most are walking the streets with Ruger Superwarhawks, or Thunderbolts, which are high caliber, high power weapons.
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May 11 2005, 05:54 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The protection provided by walls against many firearms in SR might be slightly higher than what happens IRL, but the differences aren't that great. A FMJ fired from an AK-47 through a single brick wall will most likely be significantly deformed, possibly fragmented, and moving much slower than it was before hitting the wall. As a result, it will cause a much shallower wound, enough so that the likelihood of a quickly incapacitating wound is reduced significantly. 8M -> 4M or 3M is not completely ridiculous. A lighter, faster FMJ will fare much worse. According to FM 3-06.11 COMBINED ARMS OPERATIONS IN URBAN TERRAIN, a brick veneer or a 2-inch thick, non-reinforced concrete wall will protect you against 5.56x45mm FMJs fired at less than 50 meters. The FM also states that the same rounds might not fully penetrate a car body, and thus a car can be considered cover gainst it. Meanwhile assault rifles will penetrate building materials like this in SR. |
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May 11 2005, 05:56 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I was commenting on your discussion with BitBasher, about penetration of car doors with current handguns, which I assume your comment about the HMMWVs in Iraq was related to.
Which is why I included the 10.9mm 240gr JHP at 1400 fps. ;) |
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May 11 2005, 06:02 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 354 Joined: 11-April 05 From: 123 Anytown, USA Member No.: 7,316 |
I take your point. I suppose, thinking about it, my problem isn't as much with the damage code as the fact that most PCs can shrug off that kind of damage without breaking a sweat. A fact that I find implausible, even in my gaming. |
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