Cops disable vehicle with pistols?

Cops disable vehicle with pistols?, Hyper Realism of Drama!

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Wounded Ronin

May 12 2005, 06:50 PM

Post #1

Great Dragon

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http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/l...ack=1&cset=true

QUOTE

The Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies who fired 120 rounds at an unarmed car chase suspect early Monday appeared not to have a coordinated plan and at times worked at cross-purposes, department officials said Tuesday after a preliminary investigation.

As a result, some deputies opened fire because they erroneously believed that the suspect had shot two colleagues, while others were firing because they thought the suspect was trying to ram officers, Capt. Ray Peavy said.

The findings prompted Sheriff Lee Baca, who said Monday that he was reserving judgment on the deputies' action, to question some of their tactics, saying Tuesday that the amount of gunfire seemed excessive.

The shooting, which was broadcast repeatedly on TV newscasts across the country, also came under criticism from Merrick J. Bobb, who serves as the Board of Supervisor's special counsel on Sheriff's Department matters.

He described the deputies' response as disorganized and undisciplined.

"The fact that 120 rounds were expended indicates panic, lack of planning and an absence of control," said Bobb, who plans to examine the policy issues surrounding the case and report to the Board of Supervisors.

An unedited videotape of the incident obtained by The Times offered a clearer picture of what happened when deputies blocked in a white SUV they had been chasing through a residential area of Compton early Monday.

The tape shows that deputies fired several shots initially when the suspect, 44-year-old Winston Hayes, backed toward them.

That was followed a second later by a much larger burst of gunfire coming from deputies who had surrounded Hayes' Chevrolet Tahoe. The vehicle lurched forward a short distance down Butler Avenue, moving between two groups of deputies, who delivered a third barrage, with bullets flying wildly toward officers and into homes.

Hayes and Deputy Edward Clark were wounded. Clark was treated and released; Hayes, who was shot four times, remains hospitalized.

The video shows frantic deputies pointing guns at one another in apparent confusion, as one or more officers warn: "Watch out for crossfire!"

Baca said he is most troubled about the final round of gunfire, which he estimated to be two dozen shots. He questioned whether the shots were necessary because so many rounds had already been fired and Hayes' vehicle may have been disabled by then.

So, it turns out, after all, that a pistol *can* disable a car, just like in Shadowrun.

Uh...

Except you have to shoot it 120 times.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 07:04 PM Post #2
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Just like a person, one shot with a .22 can be enough for any unarmored vehicle. It's just exceptionally unlikely that it'll hit in the very few places that that'll be enough for. (I am assuming here that a .22 will penetrate an average hood. Is that off-base?) ~J

mfb View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 07:07 PM Post #3
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	the problem's never been that a pistol can disable a car in SR. the problem is that it takes relatively few shots to do so. and that it's all-or-nothing; you either take the vehicle out in a few shots, or you can never damage it at all.

Critias View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 07:11 PM Post #4
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	The whole clip's been dissected over and over again on Glocktalk and a few other forums I hang out at. Most of what 'disabled' the vehicle was the guy ramming into stuff over and over again throughout the duration of a long car chase (and then him getting shot a few times, and deciding to just get out and shut the engine off). For those who've seen the clip, I think you'll agree it's not exactly a great example of anything positive, including what sort of 'realism' there is in Shadowrun's combat system. Were it a Shadowrun shoot out, all the basic Lone Star cops (who by default, as statted NPCs, get a 5 in their Pistols score, don't they?) would have aimed for a simple action and blasted a single 12S burst apiece at the bad guy, leaving him a smear of paste on the inside of his vehicle (regardless of the 'shooting at passengers' weirdness or not, that many high-skill-plus-combat-pool shots, complete with an extra -1 TN for aiming, would leave the guy with more holes than a leprous porn queen). Instead, all these LEO's managed to hit with something like 3% of their shots, against someone who wasn't even shooting back. How often does that happen in SR?

Arethusa View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 07:14 PM Post #5
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Good work, LAPD! Shame o' the nation! Kage: depends on what oyu mean by average. A lot of older cars are built tough enough that a .22 probably wouldn't get through. Newer cars, especially stuff like Saturns, not so much.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	May 12 2005, 07:34 PM Post #6
Guests	It was LASD, not LAPD. Also note that it was LASD because the the Comption Police Department was disbanded several years ago. They were fulfilling a policing contract.

Critias View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 07:36 PM Post #7
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	Yeah. Though Compton's now reevaluating their decision to get covered by the county sheriff's and are looking into getting their own city police force -- at the time of this now-nationally-investigated incident, all these guys were county sheriff's, not LAPD.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	May 12 2005, 07:46 PM Post #8
Guests	It's an easy distinction, though. LASD wear tan and brown. LAPD wears almost black navy blue. Also the shorthand is spelled differently. They are also called deputies instead of offficers. Finally, this happened in Compton and not the City of Los Angeles. It's also interesting to note that LAC and L.A. are both statistically underpoliced by a significant margin (LAPD and LASD don't even come close to the number of officers per capita as the NYPD, let alone most smaller cities' PDs).

Critias View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 07:58 PM Post #9
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	I'm not sure there's such a thing as LA (much less Compton, specifically) not being "underpoliced." Ahh, wait, here's a nice quote.. "We don't have any social problems here that a couple of thousand troops won't solve," Marilyn Shultz, Governor of Seattle, SR2 p. 270 Sounds about right for most of LA, doesn't it?

Grinder View Member Profile	May 12 2005, 08:04 PM Post #10
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	The cops fired (assuming to the quoted text) 120 rounds. That seems to be a lot and increases the chance of hitting somerhing important of the car.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 12 2005, 09:18 PM

Post #11

Guests

QUOTE (Critias @ May 12 2005, 01:58 PM)

I'm not sure there's such a thing as LA (much less Compton, specifically) not being "underpoliced." Ahh, wait, here's a nice quote..

"We don't have any social problems here that a couple of thousand troops won't solve," Marilyn Shultz, Governor of Seattle, SR2 p. 270

Sounds about right for most of LA, doesn't it?

Yes.

However, LA makes up for a police shortage to a point with an assload of armed security guards.

I think it's telling that Chief Parker, grandfather of the modern-day LAPD (followed by Daryl Gates), based the LAPD on the USMC. Perhaps if it was in L.A. they'd have actually killed the driver.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 02:03 AM Post #12
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	What this proves the most is that the basic street cop should default to 2 quickness insted of having a pistol skill. It also proves that making Wallhacker resist 9M when when his buddy rule-o'-ones his called shot to the corp security guard is reasonable. However, what it most proves is that police today need training in SUT.

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 02:36 AM Post #13
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Yeah, I alway thought the Ruger Thunderbolt + Pistols 5 was something of a deus ex machina to make messing with the cops a relatively bad idea.

Arethusa View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 02:54 AM Post #14
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Yeah, it's never been anything but a silly contrivance.

Fresno Bob View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 04:43 AM Post #15
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252	I think 2060 cops would be very high trained, what with the advent of cyber and magic. Having cops that weren't too effective would mean that they would have to constantly be calling out the SWAT teams, which would be too inefficient. So they would just train the beat cops to the level of current SWAT officers. And SWAT officers would be like Navy SEALs. Thats what I think, at least.

Kagetenshi

May 13 2005, 04:50 AM

Post #16

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Yeah, I alway thought the Ruger Thunderbolt + Pistols 5 was something of a deus ex machina to make messing with the cops a relatively bad idea.

On the contrary, it makes them that much more fun to hunt.

~J

hyzmarca

May 13 2005, 05:57 AM

Post #17

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Yeah, I alway thought the Ruger Thunderbolt + Pistols 5 was something of a deus ex machina to make messing with the cops a relatively bad idea.

On the contrary, it makes them that much more fun to hunt.

~J

DOOOD, I can get a free Ruger Thunderbolt just by killing a cop!?

Crotchrocket's birthday is comming up. I'll kill two and get him one. :D :cyber:

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 07:17 AM

Post #18

Guests

QUOTE (Voorhees @ May 12 2005, 10:43 PM)

I think 2060 cops would be very high trained, what with the advent of cyber and magic. Having cops that weren't too effective would mean that they would have to constantly be calling out the SWAT teams, which would be too inefficient. So they would just train the beat cops to the level of current SWAT officers. And SWAT officers would be like Navy SEALs. Thats what I think, at least.

Are you serious?

Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000¥ a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today (since the nuyen:$ is 1:1). They usually only give discounts if a cop wants cyber or wait until they can confiscate it to install it in most of their officers. Training? Ha! Training costs money, and there is no purpose in spending more money on training, especially when you have pressure from the shareholders to cut costs and competitive pressures to remain the lowest-bidder for all of their policing contracts.

KE's only slightly better because they are focused on paramilitary security with the few (compared to LS) muni contracts as more of an afterthought.

Besides, LS goes into detail more (natch) than other sources, but Lone Star was never designed to emphasize skill and training so much as the brute application of as much force as possible in the shortest amount of time.

Sicarius View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 11:17 AM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270	As for Lone Star training, as with real world police, I think alot of it is going to be determined by the individual officer, and so will remain the responsibility of the GM, especially to keep the PCs guessing. Some times the Lone Star guard is a doughnut muncher just drawing a paycheck, but every once and a while it's a UCAS Army veteran who just couldn't find better employment. Snd before someone says well the better trained are gonna be on swat or special teams, that's not always the case. You've gotta put your time in an organization to get that step up, just like today. My brother did 9 years with Marine Force Recon, and could have owned his department's SWAT team. But he did 7 years without so much as a promotion. Pity the 'runner who thinks he's defaulting to quickness 2. :dead:

Critias View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 11:55 AM Post #20
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	Yeah, but a 9 year Force Recon veteran shouldn't be the statline you give to your "default" Lone Star Beat Cop, is it?

Sicarius View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 12:53 PM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270	LOL no, probably not. My point was, there is no such thing as a "default" cop (or anything else you might encounter I guess.) and I personally would avoid using a default, particularly with cops, because if Lone Star is going to show up, its going to be because the GM thinks they SHOULD show up, since so far as I know there aren't really rules for randomly determining a LS patrol. Which is why if the PC is geeking innocent by-standers execution style outside the Krispy Kremes, you can bet that there's going to be at least 2 squad cars full of hardened veterans, and if they are on a mission, and just happen to get unlucky and screw up an electronics roll and set offl the alarm, it might only be a rookie with 6 months. Defaults are more viable with other groups of likely PCs, like gangers or security guards or something, if for no other reason than because they are npcs which you INTEND the pcs to engage, rather than Lone Star, which is on the scene because of something the PCs have done. At least for me. Which reminds me, isn't there actually a Veteran LS archtype in one of the books? what's their pistol skill? Either way, Pistol 5 is kind of absurd for an "average" cop, presuming one exists.

wagnern

May 13 2005, 02:05 PM

Post #22

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000¥ a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today

Lone Star pays its officers 20K a year?!?! Can we say CORUPTION? If the dog is hungery, you are going to have problems with him guarding the chicken coop.

You know, the more I hear of the 6th world, the more I think it might be best to just summon the Horrors.

"Ya I was a Lone Star officer, but I quit and became a inner city public school History Teacher for the pay raise and safty."

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 07:21 PM

Post #23

Guests

QUOTE (wagnern @ May 13 2005, 08:05 AM)

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 13 2005, 02:17 AM)

Lone Star is a corp that pays its officers 20,000¥ a year (in Seattle), which is less than half the starting salary of the LAPD and almost half of the starting salary for the PDs of every major city today

Lone Star pays its officers 20K a year?!?! Can we say CORUPTION? If the dog is hungery, you are going to have problems with him guarding the chicken coop.

Yes.

QUOTE (Sicarius)

no, probably not. My point was, there is no such thing as a "default" cop (or anything else you might encounter I guess.) and I personally would avoid using a default, particularly with cops, because if Lone Star is going to show up, its going to be because the GM thinks they SHOULD show up, since so far as I know there aren't really rules for randomly determining a LS patrol.

Well, there is a Lone Star Patrol Officer archetype in New Seattle (113) (Pistols 3 (Thunderbolt 5), presumably to serve as... the default LS officer.

There is no veteran LS cop archetype. There are quite a few in LS and a couple in NS, but none like that. Well, there's a Detective... But there's only Patrol, Magician and Elite Officer (Pistols 5 (Thunderbolt 7)) in NS, but that's for FRT and SWAT, and Detective in SR3 materials. LS gives stats to each member of a SWAT team, a FRT Trooper, a DED Trooper, a Detective, Several mages, and several different types of patrol cops.

Grinder

May 13 2005, 08:05 PM

Post #24

Great, I'm a Dragon...

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QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

LS gives stats to each member of a SWAT team, a FRT Trooper, a DED Trooper, a Detective, Several mages, and several different types of patrol cops.

Iirc the average street cop has unarmend combat at rating 2. That's weird.

nezumi View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 08:11 PM Post #25
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	I have generally decreased the skills of all my NPCs. They do get kinda crazy, considering Shadowrunners are supposed to be pretty paramilitary. Guards have skill from 2-5, cops from 3-6, military from 4-8 (all that is not counting the periodic 'veteran').

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