SR4 FAQ #5--The Real One - Dumpshock Forums

SR4 FAQ #5--The Real One, No, I don't know why I'm up this late

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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 08:38 AM

Post #1

Guests

QUOTE

SR4 FAQ, Part Five

Now to get back on track with SR4 FAQ updates. Here are a few answers regarding magic:

Q. Will Magic skills be broken up like firearms in SR3?
A. Magic is roughly divided into two categories for the core book, Sorcery and Conjuring. Rather than being skills of their own, however, those are general categories. The Sorcery skills are Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, and Counterspelling. The Conjuring skills are Summoning, Banishing, and Binding. Those are the skills that do most of the heavy lifting for magic in SR4.

OMG...
BTW, Counterspelling? Really? They're going with Counterspelling as a term? Wow.

QUOTE

Q. Will there still be Metamagic?
A. Yes, though it’s not exactly the same. Rather than relying on a host of new additional skills, we’ve redesigned metamagic techniques to grant new abilities to skills the magician should already have access to. Metamagic does not make a huge appearance in the core book, however. There just isn’t enough room to include it all.

Heh, "Rather than relying on a host of new additional skills..." Nah, they already took care of that in Q#1. However, of the six Magical Skills named in Q#1, none of them is called, "Centering" or "Aura Reading" or "Divining" or... Hmm. They do give themselves an out with, "[The six enumerated skills] are the skills that do most of the heavy lifting for magic in SR4" (emphasis mine), but that begs the question of whether one should now be expected to have a Centering skill at chargen if metamagics, "grant new abilities to skills the magician should already have access to."

QUOTE

Q. Do we still have Mages and Shamans?
A. Yes. In addition, however, a flexible tradition design system has been included, allowing players to model existing traditions easily, or even to create their own along with their GM. Both Hermetic and Shamanic traditions have been created for the main book and are included as the default choices.

Well, the Psionics people will like the tradition creation system, I guess. I guess all the other existing major traditions are relegated to Street Magic.

QUOTE

Q. What are you trying to do with Magic?
A. In setting out to design this, we had a few things in mind that we wanted to do as improvements over the old system. First, we wanted to make sure we were laying the groundwork for something we could expand upon later. One of the big problems with the Magic system up until now is that it simply didn’t accomodate additions. It was built to be what it was, and if anything got added, it had to be an entirely new method of doing things. Nothing was ever built upon the existing mechanics, in large part because the original existing mechanics weren’t built to accomodate other uses. The result was a system that accumulated rules detritus like a ship gathers barnacles. That’s not good design.

A second problem was that, despite three editions of the game, Magic was largely still a legacy system (to borrow a bit of computer terminology). Instead of using things that worked and discarding things that didn’t, we largely had just kept it all and tried using tweaks and bailing wire to hold it all together. With SR4, we had the luxury of taking it apart, seeing what worked and what didn’t, and reassembling it into a working whole, with new parts to replace the missing ones or damaged ones. We also didn’t want the mechanics of the core game to work in a substantially different manner than Magic did, so we tried to find new ways to handle rules issues that before had given rise to special cases, created just for Magic. This is true of design all throughout the game, though, not just for the Magic system.

The third goal we had for design with this part of the game was to eliminate unnecessary complexity. We didn’t want to do away with the aspects of magic that gave the game its feel, like traditions, spirit summoning, drain, and so forth, but we did want to make sure we didn’t have a dozen different systems trying to accomplish what one could do. I think we went a long way toward accomplishing that.

Wow, and I thought I was good at making long-winded vague statements. But, really, I don't know what to say about this.

chevalier_neon

May 13 2005, 08:53 AM

Post #2

Moving Target

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QUOTE

Rather than relying on a host of new additional skills, we’ve redesigned metamagic techniques to grant new abilities to skills the magician should already have access to

Sorry, my english is not good enough to fully undeerstand the meaning of this sentence... Does it mean that metamagic techniques will be available to anyone at creation ?
If this is the case, this is a big change, and I guess it's not a stupid one...
If I aml mistaken, well... :D

apple View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 08:53 AM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827	That should be clear. Rob is preparing our nerves for some serious changes. ;) BTW: now, no macroskills, but much more microskills? SYL

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 08:55 AM

Post #4

Guests

QUOTE (chevalier_neon @ May 13 2005, 02:53 AM)

QUOTE

Rather than relying on a host of new additional skills, we’ve redesigned metamagic techniques to grant new abilities to skills the magician should already have access to

Sorry, my english is not good enough to fully undeerstand the meaning of this sentence... Does it mean that metamagic techniques will be available to anyone at creation ?

No, I think it refers to the fact that some metamagics require you to have skills other than Sorcery or Conjuring to actually use them (i.e., Centering, Divining, Geomancy, or Anchoring).

apple

May 13 2005, 08:55 AM

Post #5

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QUOTE (chevalier_neon)

If I aml mistaken, well... :D

I would rather say, that, for example, if you have counterspelling, you can now add shilding possibilities to the skill.

SYL

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 09:00 AM

Post #6

Guests

QUOTE (apple)

QUOTE (chevalier_neon @ May 13 2005, 03:53 AM)

If I aml mistaken, well... :D

I would rather say, that, for example, if you have counterspelling, you can now add shilding possibilities to the skill.

But my question remains, where does Centering fit into all of this?

Is it a tertiary magical skill you should buy at chargen, or does it become an aspect of your magical skills? If so, and this would suck, do you have to purchase it for each skill? Does it even require a test anymore to use, or what?

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 09:04 AM Post #7
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	if Metamagics get a thorough working over, should be interesting to see how they convert all of those hard earned grades.

Eldritch

May 13 2005, 09:06 AM

Post #8

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QUOTE

Q. What are you trying to do with Magic?
A. In setting out to design this, we had a few things in mind that we wanted to do as improvements over the old system. First, we wanted to make sure we were laying the groundwork for something we could expand upon later. One of the big problems with the Magic system up until now is that it simply didn’t accomodate additions. It was built to be what it was, and if anything got added, it had to be an entirely new method of doing things. Nothing was ever built upon the existing mechanics, in large part because the original existing mechanics weren’t built to accomodate other uses. The result was a system that accumulated rules detritus like a ship gathers barnacles. That’s not good design.
.

I really don't see this at all...Just what is he talking about??

In The Beginning..They Had Spell Casting and Conjuring. They added on, meta magic, great form summoning, allies, and watchers. All using the existing sytem. I thought it all worked out well together.

Then they added Aura Reading as a skill, no big deal - same system as the rest of the skills. More magic items, same system, everything worked well.

*shrug* But thats just my view of it.. Can anyone enlighten me as to what he's saying about the current/legacy system?

The magic system has accomodated additions since the beginning, and without 'entirely new Methods'.

QUOTE

A second problem was that, despite three editions of the game, Magic was largely still a legacy system (to borrow a bit of computer terminology). Instead of using things that worked and discarding things that didn’t, we largely had just kept it all and tried using tweaks and bailing wire to hold it all together. With SR4, we had the luxury of taking it apart, seeing what worked and what didn’t, and reassembling it into a working whole, with new parts to replace the missing ones or damaged ones. We also didn’t want the mechanics of the core game to work in a substantially different manner than Magic did, so we tried to find new ways to handle rules issues that before had given rise to special cases, created just for Magic. This is true of design all throughout the game, though, not just for the Magic system.

Translation: They changed magic to fit the new ruleset.

QUOTE

The third goal we had for design with this part of the game was to eliminate unnecessary complexity. We didn’t want to do away with the aspects of magic that gave the game its feel, like traditions, spirit summoning, drain, and so forth, but we did want to make sure we didn’t have a dozen different systems trying to accomplish what one could do. I think we went a long way toward accomplishing that.

By adding new skills, making the magic attribute a purhasable attribute, having a system to create traditions...

Hopefully if they are adding all of these new skills, and making magic something you have to 'buy up' with char gen points, there will be enough char gen points to make a decent char. But it sounds more and more like they may be lowering the power of initial characters.

I am intersted in seeing the tradition design system.

chevalier_neon View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 09:09 AM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 17-April 05 Member No.: 7,341	Ok, thank you for your help on this one... I think it is a good think that they worked on the magic system to delete some of his elements and rearrange some other... August is so far away !!!!!!

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 09:14 AM

Post #10

Guests

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

if Metamagics get a thorough working over, should be interesting to see how they convert all of those hard earned grades.

No kidding. I know some people who have spent a great deal of karma in those now-unimportant or nonexistent skills who are going to get jerked around because of it.

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 09:25 AM Post #11
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	like me sad little street mage now

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 09:33 AM Post #12
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	seriosuly though, it should be interesting to see how they equate all that karma, especially at the higher grades (7+) if their not doing it in grades anymore. I can only assume that there would still be initiation is SOME form, since magic doesn't automatically start at 6 anymore, unless you just build it like any other attribute. If that's the case, I doubt initiation will be such a big deal. [B]IF[B] metamagics and initiation don't go together the same, I see it being a lot less important in the future. Guess we'll see. I do like the break down of the magical skills though (at least so far). I jsut helped a player make his first shaman the other day, and he asked me what skills he needed. "Well, sorcery and conjuring. Assensing and enchanting are good later on. Other than that, just the normal stuff." Then I thought about it and realized that kind of sucks. It's like the 'firearms' skill. Way to simplified, way to easy to focus on just that. It's almost as bad as 'computers'. Get one skill and a datajack, throw down :nuyen: 100,000, and BAM, you're a decker. Of course, on the down side, with 6(ish) magical skills, now mages take eat up even MORE karma.

Grinder

May 13 2005, 09:39 AM

Post #13

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QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

No kidding. I know some people who have spent a great deal of karma in those now-unimportant or nonexistent skills who are going to get jerked around because of it.

Best thing will be to take the karma that char earned and bulid him again from the scratch.

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 09:40 AM

Post #14

Guests

QUOTE (Eldritch)

I really don't see this at all...Just what is he talking about??

In The Beginning..They Had Spell Casting and Conjuring. They added on, meta magic, great form summoning, allies, and watchers. All using the existing sytem. I thought it all worked out well together.

Then they added Aura Reading as a skill, no big deal - same system as the rest of the skills. More magic items, same system, everything worked well.

*shrug* But thats just my view of it.. Can anyone enlighten me as to what he's saying about the current/legacy system?

The magic system has accomodated additions since the beginning, and without 'entirely new Methods'.

I'm not really sure. The closest I can see is that some metamagics added in SR3 require their own skills to use (specifically Geomancy and Divining) and Anchoring requires two skills (Sorcery and Enchanting (?)). But that's a flaw of SR3. SR2 didn't seem to have a problem adding new metamagics.

I wish I could say, but... I can't. I don't see where he's coming from with this discussion of legacy systems.

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ #5)

A second problem was that, despite three editions of the game, Magic was largely still a legacy system (to borrow a bit of computer terminology). Instead of using things that worked and discarding things that didn’t, we largely had just kept it all and tried using tweaks and bailing wire to hold it all together.

By "tweaks" I think he means conducting a wholesale change in the very essence of some metamagics and game mechanics that preceded SR3 like grounding and the astral solidity of all biomass.

QUOTE

With SR4, we had the luxury of taking it apart, seeing what worked and what didn’t, and reassembling it into a working whole, with new parts to replace the missing ones or damaged ones.

Well, they also had that luxury in SR3, and they did make certain tweaks that redefined magic in SR as a mechanic and as a story element.

In this case, the luxury of stripping it and reassembling it is code for pigeonholing it within this Fixed TN mechanic and "streamlining" the mechanics for, say, high-grade Initiates using Centering to perform impossible feats of magic into a nice simple ruleset that will probably end up being or being indistinguishable from auto successes.

QUOTE

We also didn’t want the mechanics of the core game to work in a substantially different manner than Magic did, so we tried to find new ways to handle rules issues that before had given rise to special cases, created just for Magic. This is true of design all throughout the game, though, not just for the Magic system.

Translation: They changed magic to fit the new ruleset.

Yeah, although I'm not exactly sure where he's coming from with this "special cases" stuff. However, given its nature, Magic should have unique elements distinct from firing a gun or cracking a datastore.

QUOTE

The third goal we had for design with this part of the game was to eliminate unnecessary complexity. We didn’t want to do away with the aspects of magic that gave the game its feel, like traditions, spirit summoning, drain, and so forth, but we did want to make sure we didn’t have a dozen different systems trying to accomplish what one could do. I think we went a long way toward accomplishing that.

By adding new skills, making the magic attribute a purhasable attribute, having a system to create traditions...

Hopefully if they are adding all of these new skills, and making magic something you have to 'buy up' with char gen points, there will be enough char gen points to make a decent char. But it sounds more and more like they may be lowering the power of initial characters.

I'm getting the same impression about the power level. If you need to buy six skills to equate to two under SR3 and the BP default amounts and costs are equivalent to those of SR3 (i.e., suggested BP at chargen of 125, 1:1 BP:skill pt. (up to linked Attr).) then I can easily see PCs starting with lower skills, being more focused on one skill group or type (offensive/defensive magic) or not getting some skills until later which is the same thing since it then becomes a question of whether they want to buy and increase a magical skill, a "mundane" skill, Initiate, or bond foci, etc.

OTOH, I'm not seeing where he's coming from on some of these comments. What does he mean by, "unnecessary complexity?" What are the, "dozen different systems trying to accomplish what one could do?" What, are they going to now eliminate all of the different tests for summoning different spirits, thereby creating one single Summoning Test modified by spirit type (Ally, Tradition spirit, watcher, Great Forms)? Does this mean we get to conjure whatever we want now? Can Elementals be summoned on the fly, or do nature spirits take the hit?

You know, a FAQ is, or usually anyway, answers questions. It shouldn't create a million more.

QUOTE

I am intersted in seeing the tradition design system.

Meh. I'm indifferent. Most of the interesting things I can do with magic fall within the Hermeticism sphere of influence. OTOH, I was always curious about what kind of Hermeticism or separate Tradition it is that they practice in TT. Somehow, I don't see a lot of Renewed Hermetics in TT, but it obviously wasn't important enough to fill a good chunk of TT or merit a comment in MitS (as opposed to TNO Path Magic).

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*

May 13 2005, 09:42 AM

Post #15

Guests

QUOTE (Grinder @ May 13 2005, 03:39 AM)

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 13 2005, 10:14 AM)

No kidding. I know some people who have spent a great deal of karma in those now-unimportant or nonexistent skills who are going to get jerked around because of it.

Best thing will be to take the karma that char earned and bulid him again from the scratch.

These are PCs with 1000+ karma that have existed since SR1.

Eff that.

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

seriosuly though, it should be interesting to see how they equate all that karma, especially at the higher grades (7+) if their not doing it in grades anymore. I can only assume that there would still be initiation is SOME form, since magic doesn't automatically start at 6 anymore, unless you just build it like any other attribute.

If that's the case, I doubt initiation will be such a big deal. IF metamagics and initiation don't go together the same, I see it being a lot less important in the future. Guess we'll see.

Well, I'm going to have to remain a positivist on this and say that since he didn't say that Initiation is changing, it won't. Or rather, it will out of necessity (Oh, boy. I can't wait to see what they do to Ordeals). Initiation will be around until we're told otherwise, as it is the current means of acquiring metamagics, which do still exist in SR4.

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ 5 @ Q&A 2)

we’ve redesigned metamagic techniques to grant new abilities to skills the magician should already have access to.

Okay, I can see that (except for Centering).

Anchoring, Quickening -- Spellcasting

Sympathetic Linking -- Ritual Spellcasting

Absorption, Cleansing, Filtering, Focus Blocking, Reflecting, Severing, Shielding, -- Counterspelling

Divining, Geomancy, Masking, Psychometry, Sensing -- Astral Perception

Possession -- Astral Projection

Channeling -- Binding

Invoking -- Summoning

chevalier_neon View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 09:58 AM Post #16
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 17-April 05 Member No.: 7,341	I don't think it will lower the magus power... It's only depending on how things will be done. If, by example, the magical skills value is based on your magic attribute, it could still allow quiet powerfull character (ie : 6 x magic attribute to allow in your magical skills...)...

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	May 13 2005, 09:59 AM Post #17
Guests	Nah, that's not streamlined. At least not compared to just allowing people to take up to 6 skill points in a skill at chargen.

Grinder

May 13 2005, 10:04 AM

Post #18

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QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

These are PCs with 1000+ karma that have existed since SR1.

Never said it will be easy or quick, didn't i? ;)

But i think converting chars will be much more difficult then it was from SR2 to SR3. So mabye start some new chars or at least try to build the existing one again. That's what i will do with my magic chars. The mundanes won't face so much problem i hope.

Grinder

May 13 2005, 10:05 AM

Post #19

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QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

Nah, that's not streamlined. At least not compared to just allowing people to take up to 6 skill points in a skill at chargen.

Firearms was split up in SR3 - so now that happens to the next general skill. Don't think it's that bad.

The White Dwarf View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 10:13 AM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754	Seems to me this points to one of the possible ways to solve the new dice rolling method. If all the skills are broken down into specilizations (save firearms, been there done that) it would make players have to buy several skills at a lesser rating to encompass what they used to have. It also makes attributes more stringant. Example. -You want to be super stealthy. Like ninja stealthy. You pump your quickness as high as you can, and buy all the stealth specializations at max rating. You get 12 dice at tn5 for any stealth task. You are the night. -You dont want to be steathy. You dont care. But hell if youre going to let someone sneak up on you and stab you in the back, f that. You buy an average quickness. You also buy enough alertness to qualify for a new color on the readyness scale. You get 12 dice at tn 5 to spot sneaky bastards, but only your quickenss at the rest, and spent a lot less character generation resources. Just hazarding a guess, obviously, but it does make some kinda sense. It also allows for metamagic to integrate hella easy by simply just using existing specializations in new ways (ie, you can use counterspelling as spell defense, and if you get cleansing you can use it to remove auras), or it just allows them to show up as new skills at a lesser cost (ie, instead of paying the same for centering as you do for sorcery, centering costs would be more akin to a specialization because of its narrower application, as would all skills). In Theory ™ these changes will surmount to something actually useful. I am beginning to see where theyre going with this. Im not sure Ill like the end product, but it is seeming less and less like the insane ramblings of a cthulian nightmare beast and more and more like a game.

apple

May 13 2005, 11:01 AM

Post #21

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QUOTE (Grinder)

Firearms was split up in SR3 - so now that happens to the next general skill. Don't think it's that bad.

Splitting skills up for a rule system which is supposed to be streamlined and much more easier? What about Stealth? Athletics? Computer? Etiquette? Demolitions? Car? Airplane?

SYL

PenAgain View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 11:02 AM Post #22
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 4-December 02 From: Ankeny, IA Member No.: 3,684	Ok, while we are going around hacking the six-skill issue to pieces at chargen, what if it isn't as bad as all that? Think about it- if the game is relying upon an Att + Skill combo for dice pools, won't your Magic rating add directly into each of those skills? So to have a roughly equivalent power level to SR3 or your-favorite-previous-edition, you only have to have the Skill at 2 (provided you were able to acquire Magic 6, which we still don't know all that much about.) That brings up the issue of Spell Pool being gone (right?) but that's not really being addressed by anyone here, so I'll leave that for another day. I LIKE the variable Skills because I like the idea that I may be better at Banishing than Summoning. I can't describe it any more succinctly than that, though. --PenAgain

Grinder

May 13 2005, 11:07 AM

Post #23

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QUOTE (apple)

QUOTE (Grinder @ May 13 2005, 05:05 AM)

Firearms was split up in SR3 - so now that happens to the next general skill. Don't think it's that bad.

Splitting skills up for a rule system which is supposed to be streamlined and much more easier? What about Stealth? Athletics? Computer? Etiquette? Demolitions? Car? Airplane?

SYL

I never said it's good when it comes to streamlining. ;)
I think it's just fair when the magic boys have to buy some more skills to do their tasks, just like the mundane guys have to do the same.

Critias

May 13 2005, 11:53 AM

Post #24

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QUOTE (Grinder)

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ May 13 2005, 10:59 AM)

Nah, that's not streamlined. At least not compared to just allowing people to take up to 6 skill points in a skill at chargen.

Firearms was split up in SR3 - so now that happens to the next general skill. Don't think it's that bad.

It might not be "bad," but it's not exactly "streamlined," either. So far their "streamlining" of character creation has had mutliple attributes get split into new attributes, a new attribute entirely has been created, and several skills have been split up into several more new skills.

It looks more and more like the only "streamlining" that's going on is the dumbing down of the actual die mechanic, and the removal of most round-by-round tactical thinking. Super. This is the opposite of good.

Grinder View Member Profile	May 13 2005, 12:39 PM Post #25
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Don't forget the gone-away combat pool.

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