 SR4 FAQ #5--The Real One, No, I don't know why I'm up this late |
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 May 13 2005, 07:00 PM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 9-May 05 Member No.: 7,382  |
You're assuming that the creation process/costs will remain the same. Nuff said.
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May 13 2005, 07:02 PM
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#52
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Why on earth are you assuming that the SR3 point costs will be used in SR4?
With magic being a normal attribute as opposed to an instand 6 for 30 CP it's just another stat. That means it may be considerably cheaper to make a full magician, compensate this with the skills. I have a sneaking suspicion that a 3 magic/3 in all the skills will put you on par with a 6 sorcery/conjuration mage in sr3. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 07:38 PM
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#53
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Guests |
Oh, well I meant that his suggestion is not as simple as just saying, "You have 6 skills to use magic. None of them can exceed 6 (as per the chargen system they've already mentioned). Have at it" vs. linking them to the Magic attribute.
Great... The Grade 10 Initiate doesn't even need to have a Sorcery skill to do anything. That's pretty dumb.
Well, streamlining now seems to include making a fifteen-page character sheet for all your skills.
Do not assume my heavy questioning stands in for a value judgment. I am indifferent to these ideas. If done well, they'd be great. However, if done poorly... Right now most of my questions involve Rob's references to "legacy systems" and "complex mechanics" and things that are apparently Super Evil and Sucky™ in SR3 that have been around since SR1 or 2, but yet aren't important enough to actually enumerate a single one. I have no clue where Rob's coming from with these comments, and if anyone else did that I'd be all over his shit, too.
Not me. Perhaps that's why I can't appreciate his references to problems that apparently everyone can see just fine.
Well, like you said... If I didn't care to conjure, I'd play a Sorceror Adept.
Like Computers? But they won't be rendered obsolete. They'll just be rendered less powerful or insanely powerful in how they are to allocate SR3 Sorcery to the SR4 Sorcery skills.
I wonder if this means even Hermetics will get dice pool bonuses, or whether they'll just disappear. Makes traditions easier when there's no real problem trying to fit the existing Traditions into a creation system (e.g., like how a comprehensive Totem creation system can't make several totems without handwaving or introducing skewing elements). But my favorite part is that now I might be able to make up whatever spirits I want with whatever stats and powers I want and make them exclusive to the CD2.0 Tradition. Yay!
THere have been guidelines for Totem Creation since Awakenings. But a system with numbers and values for dice mods doesn't work because of Totems like Horse who get to take Movement as a Metamagic. But that's Totem creation. This is the more meta Tradition creation, like when they created Voudoun, Wujen, Path magic, etc. |
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May 13 2005, 08:00 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 117 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,094 |
Ordinarily, as an intergral member of a highly secretive RPG engine design team, I'm not supposed to let cats out of the bag. Particularly large, scary alley cats that go by the name of 'Centering'. But. To answer your question, we removed centering completely. We thought it was pretty silly, actually, and only made sense after a dozen or so cocktails, a few thai sticks, and a fucking half a pound of fine china. Also, we took out the 'Cat' option from the Totem list much to the dismay of alot angsty goth kids. While the overall originality of character concepts should rise dramatically, we are a bit concerned about a backlash of depressing poetry. -RM "I haven't figured out how to say FUCK YOU politely." |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 08:03 PM
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#55
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Heh, yeah... Like Goth kids reflect in any way aspects of the Cat Totem.
Few and very high-end ones with powerful enemies who are also incredibly, devilishly intelligent (and intelligently played). A PC like this could have run Brainscan alone if not scaled and broken the game when they're supposed to be captured and hooked up to Deus' UV realm but instead tear a massive hole into the side of the Arc and download Deus without anyone touching them. In those cases, the games are more ... interesting and story-driven.
So you've never tried to reduce the penalties to cast a spell against a TN of 20, or shrug off drain when you're casting several powerful spells to cover your team's back? I guess we run different games then. Adding the artistic skill to your dice roll just makes your magic more artsy. How it relates to the magical aspects of Centering do not compute to me.
I don't understand this at all, unless you're suggesting that all of the Traditions should be virtually identical. I liked the original creation of Voudoun as a separate Tradition with its own aspects that required it to fill a good chunk of Awakenings. MitS just screwed it up by trying to pigeonhole it into the Totem/Idol structure--probably more of that "streamlining" that people like to talk about. In exchange, they completely ruined all of the good of Voudoun. It's not like they've been adding Traditions after Traditions. Idols have been treated like Totems since they were introduced in 1994 (in the U.S.). But Druids have been shoehorned into Hermeticism and Totem magic (with their own Totems), All Western Theurgy was stuck in Hermeticism. Path magic hasn't changed much, nor should it really, in how it's used within the rules. They could either create new rules for each Tradition or stick them in the Big Two, but I don't see how this, for example, created such an awful "legacy system" in the rules. Moreover, I don't see why they couldn't have fixed things in SR3 if it was so bad. It's not like they didn't try with some things. With this description, though, it seems more like Magic is going to be completely different and I have yet to see one reason why it should be. |
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May 13 2005, 08:16 PM
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#56
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Sorry, can't really catch the thougt you have. Can you explain it in other words, understandable for non-native english speakers? :) |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 08:24 PM
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#57
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Context:
The suggestion seemed to suggest treating magic like how knowledge skill points are allocated. I think it defeats all the talk of "streamlining." It is easier to not touch that at all, and stick with the current rules for purchasing Active Skills at chargen.
Yeah, well... Your lack of comprehension is not my problem.
With re: to Anchoring, because SR3 "fixed" it, and by fixed I mean made much worse, which is the same thing as making non-active biomass astrally equivalent to air. As for why they get their own rules... Because it's a whole different worldview. The entire Totem system is fucked simply because it rammed not just NA shamanism but all inidigenous "shamanism" into one system where everyone follows animal totem archetypes instead of how NA magical belief systems actually work. So unless they tear down Shamanism completely or eliminate it (which I doubt they will. Call it a complete and utter distrust of every effing thing they do and their intentions) then it will still remain a fucked up system if for no other reason that because it plays a minor part in magical world view but has been, and will continue to be, one of the Big Two Traditions. So if there are "legacy system" problems that they're going to "fix" then the best thing they could do was fix Shamanism by eliminating it or reduce it from its pedestal as one of only two Traditions you can play--a system that was flawed from conception and is why other Traditions exist (beginning with Druids, then Idols, Path of the Wheel, Loa, and Wujen) to reflect the fact that in the bigger picture Hermeticism and Shamanism are far from the only magical systems in SR. This isn't a "problem." It's a damn good thing, and when MitS did a 180 and completely neutered Voudoun it was a failure on their part to make things better. But we're talking about mechanics that were added on top of each other, like... Like... See, I don't know what they are talking about. Unless they want to make summoning uniform across every Tradition now, and that's the only example I can think of. I also think that would be a very bad idea because the summoning of different spirits should at least reflect that they are different spirit types.
Yes. The existing system is more intuitive to me than just neutering any mechanical differences between the Traditions or whatever nonsense they're going to do to Magic to dumb it down. |
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May 13 2005, 08:26 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If I pretend that I don't know anything about SR3, the FAQ sounds great. Nasty, exception-filled, inextensible system being replaced with a nice, extensible, consistent system. Great! I'm all for it.
Except I actually know the SR3 system. I've never had any trouble extending the system. Neither did FASA. Yes, new metamagics do something new. That's why there's a point in taking them. Some of them require new rules, because they're doing something sufficiently new to not fit into old rules (e.g. masking). Some just require a refinement (e.g. shielding). I don't see the huge problems that are supposed to be fixed. Can someone else clearly enumerate the problems with the SR3 magic system that need to be fixed? So it's hard to know whether I should be encouraged or worried. On the encouraging side, the rhetoric sounds perfect. On the worrying side, they're bashing their own product without apparent cause; if they view SR3 magic as horribly broken, what, one wonders, do they regard as fixed? |
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May 13 2005, 08:35 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Weird - read the text though - it's different. With someone elses sigs. I think the board is going mad.... But I didn't post those two funky looking posts. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 08:40 PM
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#60
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Oh, yeah. That's an encouraging sign that they feel the need to bash the product that they had some sort of a hand in building unless MitS was written late one night by Steve and Mike and pushed out the door without anyone else's knowledge (specifically, that of the 90 playtesters) and that they are washing their hands of having that taint, but also the taint of Paul Hume's work in SR1/2 and the original design team. Just because MitS is a poorly-written sourcebook doesn't mean we should burn down the entire system. |
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May 13 2005, 09:12 PM
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#61
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Thanks a lot :) I don't think streamlining means having only a handful skills. Streamlining can also mean imo that basic skills like firearms, spellcasting or decking are split up into sub-skills, treating every skill group the same way. |
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May 13 2005, 09:27 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
You mean like have a list of broad skills, that are expensive, concentrations that are a little less, and specializations that are cheap? Yeah,.....That'd be cool. ;) |
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May 13 2005, 09:32 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 |
LOL, this really sums up my confidence in the new system. Simplified and streamlined my ass. |
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May 13 2005, 09:53 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 17-April 05 Member No.: 7,341 |
It might be easier to have one skill for each task you want to perform, and also more realistic... Could you please explain me why streamlined would be the opposite of accurate ?
If I was a rookie in SR, I would appreciate to understand alone what my character can do... Sorry for trolling, but I have the strange feeling that most of you, guys, would have like to see a SR4 with no changes compared to SR3... I will tell a little bit more about myself... I am a great fan of Vampire the Mascarade (having all the books since 1st ed.) ... And the new "edition" has nothing to deal with the old one (some like, some dislike)... In your case, you, SR players, you have the chance to get a new revised SR, with the same background, but a more efficient system... And without having seen it, you are sending this core book to death row ?!? You are thinking too much in SR3 ways to fully understand SR4... We don't know anything at all... Maybe the char gen system will be entirely different and so on... So, forgive my ranting, but I think that yours are not really constructive neither... Sorry if my english is bad, but I am french (nobody's flawless... ) |
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May 13 2005, 09:57 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I don't think there's anything wrong with splitting up or combining skills. That's pretty much a neutral change. If they think it works better with SR4 to have them split, that's fine with me--hopefully it'll work better with the new system.
But that doesn't have much bearing on whether the system will be unified or not, or extensible or not. You could have narrowly-tuned, precisely defined skills for each aspect of magical activity, each of which work in a completely different way, and which cannot be built upon. That's arguably worse than the current system. Or, the skills could break things down along natural lines and provide a unifying framework for each different type of magical activity (and be diverse enough to handle anything you could possibly want). That's arguably better. What I wonder is why they think the current magic system is so bad. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 13 2005, 10:08 PM
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#66
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Guests |
Sorry. State secrets. We can't tell you. If we did, we'd have to kill you. |
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May 13 2005, 10:11 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 279 Joined: 21-March 05 From: Freeport NY Member No.: 7,205 |
The reason I was using SR3's chargen is because, despite all the changes coming to SR4, I doubt they are going to heavily, heavily alter the basic character paradigm of:
Awakenedness Attributes Skills Race Nuyen Mages already get it for the Awakendness. No big deal, thats to be expected. In SR3, most mage characters I saw were based around a low-skill threshold so that quickness, willpower and intellegence get maxed (or at least close-to) in leiu of heavy 'ware. Race didn't always come into play, but elves are cool. Nuyen? Nah, not huge in play, but by this point they've already spent 66 build points on stuff, and they need attributes in other things as well (so they don't pop if they're poked). Skills are left on the backburner. So yeah, chargen might be nothing like it currently is and I might be able to replicate my elf full mage with sorcery skills all at 6 and some left over for pistols and SMGs, as well as a few points in stealth and athletics and blah blah. Or, as has been suggested (and would be so hawt yet completely unfair and silly...Well...Then again, read on!), a Grade 10 initiate could just throw 17 spellcasting dice for everything she does, having only a one in every sorcery skill....But then again, a street sam with (insert quickness replacement here) and assault rifles 4 can throw eight dice at said mage, probably before the mage moves. And burst fire = Fun for sams, blood for wizzies. So maybe it IS fair that a Mage could wind up a one-turn, mass-destruction tool...But I doubt it. |
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May 13 2005, 10:13 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
That was one of the most rediculous things I've ever read related to SR4. |
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May 13 2005, 10:17 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 17-April 05 Member No.: 7,341 |
I would really hate this... I would really hate a troll with 13 in force and 1 in brawl throwing 14 dices... He should throw one dice for brawl, and if he can hit, make 13 as damage... That's why I hope they will do a rule with no more dice pool than your skill rating x 2... Same for mages :)
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May 13 2005, 11:36 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
More efficient system is yet to be determined. Potentially more effecient. Possibly more efficient. *shrug* And we do know some things, yeah, it's not much, but so far it's enough. We get totally different rules, and a setting change. The rework of the magic system mentioned today is another potential indicator of a setting change. Like I said earlier; Should we start pitching new names for this new game?? That may be helpful. Unfortunetly, like you sad, all this 'ranting' may not be constructive, but sitting around saying, "All is sweetness and light. Everyhting is fine" Isn't helpful either. We all realize that the Devs have made up their mind, We're just hoping against hope that we'll get through to them. Doubtful. But it makes us feel better. :) "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" |
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May 13 2005, 11:37 PM
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#71
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I was refering to the SR3-updated version of the spells, and the ones added in MitS. My god man, look at the sprawl catch-all that Manipulations has become. It became so big that it grew sub-catagories. Sub-catagorization that appears to have little to no game consequences. |
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May 13 2005, 11:47 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Those kind of characters are going to be redos. Personally all along i've been expecting that anything over a couple hundred karma are going to be redos. I wouldn't even bother counting karma when rebuilding them. Just add and subtract as needed till it looks right. Sort of like those "How to build a [Movie Character Du'jour]" threads that pop up periodically on the main DSF. That's an awakened PC, right? How many Grades do those characters have? |
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May 14 2005, 12:00 AM
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#73
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Holy brain stuck in SR3, Batman. Within that paradigm you can have a very wide range of weightings for things. For starters given that the Magic attribute is variable at character creation just the part specifying that a character is awakened needs a redo. Further do you really think that they would go through the time and effort to shakedown all parts of the system but leave character generation intact to the point that you can actually mix in SR3 chargen numbers???? That said it is quite possible with a larger group of skills that awakened characters are going to have specialize more (like gun slingers did going from SR2 to SR3), or cover all magical catagories but be sub-par in them all. By specialization i mean either specialize in a particular aspect of magic (no more casting & conjuring godlings, you have to start as either a casting godling or a conjuring godling) or specialize in magical skills to the determent of all other character aspects (casting & conjuring idiot savant). Personally i don't see that as patently bad at all. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 14 2005, 12:16 AM
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#74
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Guests |
More than your average GD according to DotSW. The problem is that they're not building some PC to be a best fit to someone else's conception. These are their own PCs with 15 years of backstory and history to them. It's disingenuous to ask them to build a "best fit" PC within the scope of stats that the devs for years have tried to pretend don't exist. There really isn't much of a conception in SR that you can have an Initiate who can run out of canon Metamagics. |
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May 14 2005, 12:24 AM
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#75
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Sounds like the character has kinda out grown [canon] SR3 too? What does the PC actually do to pass the time? |
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