 Geasa, And the flogging of shedding them... |
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 May 19 2005, 09:40 AM
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#51
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Freelance Elf  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714  |
I was being a little facetious, in order to go with the whole repetition/alliteration thing. Won't happen again. Allow me to, instead, mention again a previous example I stated that has yet to be refuted by the "Geasa are candy!" crowd.
"It's like a limitation stating that your IA:Pistols only works when you're firing a pistol." |
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May 19 2005, 09:44 AM
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#52
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No problem. I was being painfully literal. I am sure there are many rules lawyers who will explain why their adepts have the mindset that destroying a drone is the same as "killing" a drone and disrupting a spirit equals "killing" a spirit. |
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May 19 2005, 12:32 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Ok, is someone now going to suggest that IA:Pistols only when firing is a limitation because you can't use it when cleaning your pistol? |
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May 19 2005, 12:41 PM
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#54
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I wouldn't put it past them.
"IRL, I spend at least 25% of my time after I go shooting, disassembling and cleaning my handgun! That means if my IA doesn't help with that (not that it helps with that regularly, in the rules), I deserve a 25% discount on my power cost! My IA: Pistol is still there, it's just not doing anything! Mars chicken liver sourpuss cream cheese!" |
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May 19 2005, 12:57 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
Hehe, actually a Geas that compulsively requires the Adept/Mage to clean his weapon after each round of combat would be kinda harsh.
Failure to clean the weapon before using it again breaks the geas. And cleaning should involve disassembly or special cleaning fluids if a melee weapon. |
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May 19 2005, 01:08 PM
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#56
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Indeed, but how does he decide what to allow or not to allow? Is he going to disallow a canon example of a geas? Is he going to refuse a Talisman geas that follows canon? While by canon, he has the right to refuse any geas that he feels is limiting, by canon, can he feel that a certain geas is not limiting? There is a very good reason why the book provides examples and guidelines. Also for IA: Pistols Geased to using pistols, you lose that when you default to pistols. |
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May 19 2005, 01:09 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Holy Deja Vu, Batman!
How about spell shroud: Only when in the target area of a detection spell? Missile Parry: Only when targetted by a projectile weapon? Suspended State: Only when alive? I'm going to bed. |
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May 19 2005, 01:11 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Alright.. the Improved Ability: Pistols...
1) Who would allow 'Only when I'm using Ares Predators'? 2) Who would allow 'Only when I'm using Ares Predators' on a character who only uses Ares Predators (has specialization 8)? |
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May 19 2005, 01:28 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
I would allow neither. For the simple reason that they are both variations of the Talisman Geas, but are both easier to fulfill. If you bind yourself to a specific Ares Predator, which you take the time to bond to you as per the bonding talismen rules, then sure. Note though, that a talisman must have 2 defining characteristics if replaced later. An Ares Predator is certainly complex enough that another could replace the first talisman if lost. (EDIT: Your talisman limits could be set at, 1. it has to be a pistol and 2. it has to have a certain engraving.) - The engraving could even be the Ares logo, meaning you can potentially make talismen for this geas on your pistol skill using any Ares Pistol, or the engraving could be your personal mark, opening up for use of all types of pistols, but giving your identity away if you lose one of them. Also note, that the rules mention nothing about preparing more than one talisman in advance. So if you bind both your Ares Predators to you, then the geas is fulfilled using either of them. But they are still specific guns, and picking up a third generic AP will not work for the geas. - Until its bound to you by ritual. |
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May 19 2005, 01:49 PM
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#60
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You know you can simply geas all those powers to : Cannot be taught. No need for all that dancing around what is a limitation, you gotta be insane (although I am), etc crap.
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May 19 2005, 03:26 PM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
I'd allow both. Ask around here and tell me if our gunfreaks DON'T have a pistol (or rifle or shotgun, etc.) that they're partial to. Tell me if they DON'T have a pistol (or rifle or shotgun, etc.) that they're a bit more proficient in. If you have a specialization in a certain kind of firearm, that means you've spent more time focusing on it. It also means that being psychologically dependant on that firearm (to the extent that your juju doesn't work when you're not using it) isn't unreasonable. Yes, I know a geas is supposed to be a limit, but some of these last posts have convinced me that some of us believe that "limit" = "rape player in the ass." "Uhhh... Ok, I have improved pistols but it only works when I'm naked, standing on my head, covered in cottage cheese, and yodeling. How's that?" |
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May 19 2005, 04:02 PM
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#62
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Don't forget "... with a beer in each hand, so I can't hold a pistol!" |
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May 19 2005, 04:03 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
"...blindfolded, on fire..."
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May 19 2005, 04:06 PM
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#64
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
"...dancing the funky chicken..."
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May 19 2005, 04:06 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
There's a long middle ground between 'rape player in the ass' and 'give player stuff for free'. |
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May 19 2005, 04:12 PM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
I agree.
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May 19 2005, 05:14 PM
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#67
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
The way I see it, the awakened and unawakened were pretty well balanced before geas entered the mix. The system worked, and it worked pretty well. So logically, geas should not give mages a significant advantage over their unawakened brethren. After all, there's no equivalent for the unawakened, just more ware.
So it's my feeling that the downfalls of a geas should just about balance out with the benefits. If you geas a point of essence to get some cyber, the geas should restrain you about as much as the cyber helps you. Geas aren't meant to be a bonus or a fun thing. They're a restriction, a flaw. If you don't make them into flaws, there's no purpose in keeping them in the game, except to pooch mundanes. |
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May 19 2005, 07:30 PM
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#68
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Target Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 8-January 05 From: St. Paul, MN Member No.: 6,949 |
I don't mind the balance of geasa that much, voluntary or involuntary - mostly due to the fact that chromies never suffer essense loss - and they can choose alphaware and betaware to make their essense go further. What I don't like is that finger-wigglers can take geasa for magic loss that is attributed to gaining cyberware/bioware. Losing some magical ability is supposed to be the cost of gaining the bennifit of cyber. If they chose a geas to keep that magic point, it better be damn limiting, and if I'm GMing it certainly won't be a talisman geas attached to the peice of cyberware that was just implanted.
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May 19 2005, 07:46 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
The situation you describe is already in the books. The Talisman Geas. Its not doing harsh things to anyones rectum to take a Talisman geas. :P The only hitch is that the player has to spend a week doing a bonding ritual with his gun. Then he's all set. You cannot simply make a geas that is merely limiting the player to use a generic kind of item, when there, in the book, is a limitation to a specific item. Its a fairly small distinction, but its not unnoticeable. And its NOT rape. |
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May 19 2005, 08:24 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
If I wanted a talisman geas, I'd have specified it as a talisman geas.
Condition geas: examples: drunk, sit in lotus, unwounded. My interpretation: Must be doing something, or satisfy some physical condition. To my mind: "using Ares Predators" is a condition. If it was a talisman geas, then I could be holding a predator in one hand, or wearing it in a holster, and I could use the power with any pistol. A talisman geas is fundamentally different. It requires 3 specific details, and the power works so long as you have the talisman on hand. Replacing it requires 1 hour meditation. (1 hour per force of spell, assuming force of spell is equivalent to one magic point) |
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May 19 2005, 09:48 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
Ok, so we are speaking the same language now.
What I am trying to get across to you, is that a conditional geas should not be so obviously more lenient than another existing geas. In this case the Talisman geas. Simply using any Ares Predator is very much more lenient than having to use an Ares Predator your character is intimately familiar with. A conditional geas that would be ok, would be an act or other condition that requires some kind of extra concentration. Holding an Ares Predator does not, by itself, demand extra concentration to be focused. Meditating on the feel of the gun, the weight in your hand, instinctly knowing how much you have to pull down to counter the recoil after the first shot, minute tugs done within splitseconds of each round fired. - Now that would be a geas. And its a geas that could be broken by a violent outside interference, massive noise, shouting on the radio of panicking friends, heavy gunfire directed at you etc. |
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May 19 2005, 10:54 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
The condition geas is less leniant then the talisman geas.
The talisman geas is valid even if you've got the predator stuffed in the holster. The condition is valid only when you're using the predator. Beyond that.. the examples I gave of condition geasa were canon ones. Straight out of MitS. How are any of them broken by "violent outside interference, massive noise, shouting on the radio of panicking friends". Heavy gunfire, maybe (if it hits..) and the condition is 'unwounded'. Oh.. and the talisman geasa would be : pistol, accepts a silencer, Ares logo. |
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May 19 2005, 11:07 PM
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#73
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It isn't canon but I'd treat a gease to compensate for voluntary cyberware as a voluntary gease. No shedding. |
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May 20 2005, 02:33 PM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
If you have to be drunk, that's an obvious disadvantage, since it would involve TN penalties to all your actions (I can't imagine anyone actually taking this except for roleplay reasons.) If you're sitting in lotus you can't be running away, have TN modifiers for melee (prone), etc. Unwounded geasa are obviously limiting at least some of the time...All of the conditions they list in the book have real, genuine drawbacks. What's the genuine drawback to 'Must be shooting' as a geasa to IA:Pistols? I'm not saying that you can't rationalize a justification for why it makes sense; I'm asking what the drawback is that balances out the benifit. Bottom line: Every GM has his own playing style, with his particular threat levels, chances of deadly wounds, expected power levels, predominence of magic, etc. In my games, the players start out on the lower end or middle of the power scale, magic is more predominant than many other GMs here, deadly wounds are uncommon but not unheard of (especially in the beginning), and geasa will impede the character's use of magic between 25% and 50% of the time. If you want to make it easier for your mages to take geasa and get more points, than that's your perogative. But it wouldn't fly in my game. |
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May 20 2005, 04:42 PM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Damn, that's a little harsh. Why pay for and geas magic at all if half the time you're not going to be able to use it anyway? Might as well not even bother. |
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