Concealment applying to vehicles, wasn't answered in other threads Options

[fistandantilus4....]

I've been digging at this for a while, and none of the previous thread answer this to my satisfaction.

What I'm trying to find is how the concealment power applies to vehicles. As I recall from the other posts (new to vehicles, so I never really bothered to look it up), it can cover a vehicle with body up to the spirits force, for one service.

So I need specifics. What I'm using it for (or trying to) in game is to use concealment on a Banshee ( the t-bird, not the infected elf). Concealment effects perception on all aspects (sight, sound , heat, etc). But..

1) Does it apply to sensors? Is it considered physical where it will also be concealed from cameras and vehicles sensors?
Or is it basically 'mana' based ,where it only works on living targets

2) how much sound can it cover. A t-bird makes a hell of a lot of noise . Ever heard a Harrier jet take off? LOUD. But if it's a straigh modifier of force, the nyou can say that the T # to hear a t-bird take off is 2 (since that's as low as TN#'s go, plus say 7 (force 7 spirit), and all of a sudden you need a 9 on a perception test to hear the thing take off from 100 feet away!

3) can the spirit keep up? Spirits can move pretty fast with the fast movement ability. cAn the yslow that down and keep pace? We'll assume a force 7 Great form sky spirit so that we don't have to worry about crossing over domains.

4) kind of a side question - if said Banshee was warded on the inside (or even the outside) could the spirit still use concealment on it?

[Aku]

1)donno
2)donno
3) a possible answer! I always thought that with the fast movement power, that spirits were basically able to duplicate their astral movement on the material plane. That is, they can pretty much go at any speed, but why run when you can zoom? (well, maybe it's so you can protect this T-Bird that can only move so fast)

[cykotek]

1) Yes. Concealment is listed as Type: P in both Critters and the BBB, which means it's a physical effect. Just as improved invisibility (a physical spell) conceals you from cameras, Concealment works on vehicle sensors.

2) My answer would be to look at the perception test chart, pg 231 of the BBB. I'd be willing to say that a panzer is equivlent to a sustained grenade blast, if not louder. So apply a -8 or -10 to their perception test (Base TN of 4). So the target number to hear it would be -4. Yes, this is then set to TN 2. But if you have a Force 6 spirit conceal it, then the TN is still 2 (4-8+6). So it didn't even help. Modify for distance as you see fit, before raising TN to 2 (if necessary).

3) Depends on a lot of things. The spirit must be manifest to use concealment, so it no longer has access to astral fast movement. It could use it's movement power on itself, however. Depending on the GM, that could require another service. There is also the question of "is the interior of a moving vehicle part of a vehicles so-called aura?" If the GM's answer is yes, the spirit could just sit in the back of a moving vehicle without issue. Similarly, a magician projecting wouldn't have to expend effort to maintain position relative to the inside of the vehicle.

The rules on page 151 of the BBB seem to contradict this, however, stating that a magician must make an Intelligence (aka, Astral Quickness) test to rejoin with his body if his physical body is still in motion. Taking that rule under consideration, I'd say that the spirit must pace the vehicle under its own power. And it has to stay manifest to use a physical power. So if, between the spirit's normal movement and its movement power, it can't keep up, then it can only use concealment to the limit of its LOS.

[ShadowGhost]

The wording for concealment isn't as specific as I'd like, but we apply it to visual perception only, not sound, just like improved invisibility, and it works against sensors.

If the spirit conceals the vehicle, and then climbs on board, it can keep up easily. It only needs LOS to establish the concealment, not sustain it.

[weblife]

The Concealment power simply gives you +Force to the TN to spot you. A big loud T-Bird will be pretty hard to hide. I don't know if concealment covers sound btw...

How do you handle Concealment in combat btw? - Do you apply blindfire modifier to people who fail their Perception check?

No penalty, at all, to those who spot the character?

[Edward]

If the spirit must be manifest to us eth power just sit it on a seat in the vehicle and it will move as the vehicle dose,

As for vehicle sensors they go against signature, I would say that signature is affected buy the concealment power.

Edward

[hobgoblin]

hmm, consealment in combat. that is in fact not coverd by any SR text at the moment. alltho the simplest way is that as you failed your perception your not even aware that the person is there so therefor you cant even do blind fire (but that will not protect the person from walking into a area under suppression fire).

why? i belive that blind fire requires that you have a general idea about where the target is but you cant see the target (ie, you heard him or smelled him or something). concealment makes you totaly unware that there is someone there.

other then that edwards post makes sense in that the solutions are simple. if a spirit is manifested physicaly it can be rammed by a vehicle, ergo it should be able to ride inside a vehicle :P

[Crimson Jack]

[fistandantilus4....]

That's what I was thinking for combat. Muzzle flash. Not really part of the items being concealed, so that should show at least.

Thanks for all the feed back

[Crimson Jack]

Depending on the location, the vehicle could also leave signs of its traverse in its wake. In our case, the character's Westwind went offroad through a dirt field leaving nice and easy tracks to follow, as well as a small cloud of dust. But you could also have tire marks left on the road or litter/debris kicked up from the vehicle's movement too.

[fistandantilus4....]

Good point, like the muzzle flash.
My case BTW was for a t-bird (Banshee in particular)

[Reign Maker]

If your summoning a force 7 great form sky elemental why not just have him storm the inside of the attack fighter or whatever vehicle is trying to get you?... keep it simple! Also keep in mind an astrally perceiving or duel nature being will see and hear you just fine.

I have a character submitted in Hobbegoblins campaign using a shamanic adept in a helicopter :) days before this came up. So glad I know his feelings on the subject before it occurred in game! :rotfl:

[fistandantilus4....]

I was acutally planning on doing something like that. My mage has an ally spirit, and I was going t ogive it the VTOL skill, so if we get attacked while border running, we havea cahnce of stealing a t-bird! Sure it'll be warded,and probably have tons of tracers, but hey, I thought it was a good idea!

Now I just have to figure out how to make it work. Too bad concealment wouldn't hide a tracer.