Why SR4 ?, A basic flaw with SR3 Options

[Kagetenshi]

[Nerbert]

Kagetenshi, I have no idea what you're trying to communicate with your nonsensical remark. If you're implying that there's nothing inherently bad about variable TN dice systems, I agree with you.

Saying that something is more complicated then something else is a non judgemental assesment of an easily provable phenomenon.

[Earthwalker]

[Shadow]

[nezumi]

[Kagetenshi]

[Nerbert]

But why is such a degree of precision necessary? What purpose does it serve? It doesn't add any more "realism" as can be demonstrated by the regular Shadowrun forums, and any discussion concerning firearms.

Its true that the ability to more precisely control variables increases strategy. But it also increases complexity. When does the complexity of a system make its strategic nuances meaningless?

There seem to be two schools of thought. The first is that the level of complexity in SR3 is fine and that it merely needs to be refined. The second is that refining the system isn't enough, and that the basic fundamentals of the game must be rebuilt from the gound up.

FanPro seems to have chosen the latter tactic. I happen to be on their side. I think the ability to enjoy SR3 as a RolePlaying game is diminished by the complexity of the system. But I can also appreciate that the complexity lends itself very well to an roleplaying Game.

My personal hope is that FanPro achieves a balance between complexity and depth, and that everyone will be able to appreciate the results.

[Nerbert]

[Eldritch]

[Kagetenshi]

If you're going with a static-TN system in which you only alter one variable, you've got two choices for what that variable is: it can be either the number of successes needed to succeed, so to speak, or it can be the number of dice.

Say you add or subtract dice for your modifiers. Congratulations, your minimum change of success is 33%.

Say you instead change the number of 5+ rolls needed to succeed. Suddenly you need to either be rolling a lot of dice, or any meaningful modifiers are going to make tasks impossible for some characters. For example, take an Attribute 2, Skill 2 character: 4 dice. Now have a +4 Threshold modifier, for a total of five successes required. Five success on four dice has what chance of happening again?

As for making the dice exploding, maybe that's the answer, but they're not doing that (well, they might be, but they've already said they're modifying both total dice and required successes—"hits", in the new parlance).

~J

[Nerbert]

Kagetenshi, obviously someone rolling 4 dice isn't the best person to be trying to accomplish this task. You don't have your Qui 1, Pistols 1 Twinked out UberMage try to sharpshoot, now do you? What is your point?

And by the way, I've seen people get 5 or 6 successes against a TN 8 on 4 d10s by rerolling 10s, so don't knock it.

edit - Ok, a "twinked out ubermage" would proabbly have Qui higher then 1 for purposes of initiative, but lets not split hairs.

[Kagetenshi]

Of course they aren't going to be the best person to do the task. Is someone with Pistols 1 the best person to take on a TN 20 shot? Of course not.

The question remains: if they're all there is, is it possible for them?

~J

[Nerbert]

And the answer is... Yes! Statistically it is possible!

I'm not doing the math, so I can't tell you if 1 die vs TN 20 is the same probability as 4 dice vs TS 5. But you seem to be implying that 1 die vs TN 20 is somehow more wholesome or nutritious.

[Shadow]

I haven't noticed anything about if you are going to need variale successes in the new system. Or if one success is good enough for the whole shabang.

The problem as I see it in SR4 is that it is a new system for the sake of a new system. Liking or disliking variable TN aside the basic mechanic works great.

I suppose the variable dice static TN will work fine. But you can only have so many variables before they flatten out.

Heres an example.

Caracter A:

Quick (or whatever it is in SR4) 4
Pistols (or whatever) 4

Total dice pool: 8

Character B:

Quick: 2
Pistols: 2

Total Dice Pool 4

Situational modifier -7 dice

Now both characters get the same amount of dice to shoot with. 1.

So all of A's skill don't really mean anything.

[Nerbert]

This is how that kind of thing works in nWoD, using d10s. You add all positive modifiers, and then subtract all negative modifiers. If you're reduced to zero dice, you can roll a "chance die". One die is different from a Chance die in the following ways. A chance die can only succeed on a ten, whereas a normal die succeeds on an 8, 9 or 10 and a chance die is a critical failure when it rolls a 1, whereas on a normal die, there's no penalty for rolling a 1. Thus, being reduced to zero is substantially worse then being reduced to one.

However, we have no information on how this will be handled in SR4.

[Kagetenshi]

[Eldritch]

[Gort]

Is there a big problem with some things being impossible to some people?

A newborn baby successfully threading a needle COULD happen, but the chances of it actually occurring are so vanishingly small that they really don't matter in an RPG.

[Gort]

[Nerbert]

[Kagetenshi]

No, they have announced it, and it does use multiple variables. Read the text Eldritch quoted.

~J

[Nerbert]

Multiple variables? What does that have to do with rerolling 6s to avoid having impossible tasks?

[edit]

I understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that calculating the modifiers to the dice pool is one source of complication, and that calculating the threshold of successes needed is another source of complication, one no better then calculating a variable target number.

Why all the screaming about "impossiblity"?

[edit for thought]

And anyway, threshold was something that had to be delt with in SR3 anyhow. You'd still have cases where you needed multiple successes, and you'd still have to figure out what multiple successes meant.

[Kagetenshi]

Because you challenged (not without reason) my assertion that a single-variable fixed-TN system is too simple to be viable. The fact remains that even if it is viable, that's not what they're doing, and that's really the core of the discussion.

The reason I refuse to consider exploding dice is because I believe that, under normal circumstances, that's not what they're doing. I have my own reasons for that, and freely admit that I can't defend it without further FAQs (which may also invalidate my position, potentially). It's not a direction of conversation that I should have gone in in the first place; I blame insufficient sleep last night.

~J

[Nerbert]

Well, if they're not using exploding dice, I'm just going to be really perplexed.

And I do stand corrected concerning my single variable statement. What I should have said is that SR3 is actually a three variable system and that fixing the dice TN would reduce it to two.

[Shadow]

I am farely certain they are not using exploding dice. While it hasn't been anounced in a FAQ I have seen discussion that indicates that they are not.