 Why SR4 ?, A basic flaw with SR3 |
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 May 27 2005, 07:27 PM
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#76
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
Due to the effects of karma cost on skills I think attributes has a pretty strong effect in SR3. Just my opinion though. |
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May 27 2005, 07:29 PM
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#77
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
only in the long run, which--according to the polls i've seen posted on here--very few games ever extend into. as i recall, most people retire their characters for one reason or another after ~30 karma. that's not nearly long enough for attributes to have very much impact.
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May 27 2005, 07:40 PM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In my experience attributes have a much stronger effect than skills. Between skill costs, pools, derived attributes like Reaction, Attributes being used as TNs for opposed tests, and all of the other functions, I've seen very few characters without high Attributes and more than a few with only a few high Skills.
~J |
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May 28 2005, 02:55 AM
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#79
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
If you limit something to a narrow enough range, almost any function will do the job. Percentile dice do well between 40% and 60%. d20 does well between 7 and 14. SR3 does well between 2 and 4, and between 8 and 10, and bewteen 14 and 16, and (etc.). If you're going to limit the range, the question is: once you are limited, is the range useful? As others have argued, having all rolls consist of between 5 and 12 dice doesn't make for a very useful system. For one thing, the worst possible skill is only about half as bad on average as the best possible skill. For another, trying to fit all the variations in bonuses, penalties, skill, and attributes into a 7-point range is pretty difficult. Maybe you can assign 2 points of variability to each. (i.e. your attribute can either be Okay, or Bad, or Good (4, 3, or 5) as can your skill; and then you can have Bad, Okay, Good, and Fantastic conditions--that keeps you in the 5-7 range. More than that, and you go out). I don't want a system that only works for average runners doing average things. What happens if I want to throw a bunch of crazed chipheads at them? The system breaks? What about if I want to pit them against a powerful and cunning foe? The system breaks? I'll take a system that is a little glitchy for everyone over one that is fine for average folks and broken for anything unusual any day. The unusual is often the highlight of the story. Having the system fall apart in your face under those conditions really detracts from the mood. And then you have to cheat to save your NPC. No thanks. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
May 28 2005, 02:59 AM
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#80
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Guests |
Some of us prefer sticking with only the unusual, too.
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May 28 2005, 05:16 AM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 19-September 04 From: Charleston, IL Member No.: 6,676 |
Sorry if someone already mentioned this...skipped some of the posts due to boredom of bickering.
I myself like the variable target number system, but am willing to give the new system a shot. I agree the 6/7 target number thing is a bit of nonsense sometimes but lets look at the other really lame situation for a mage. (from a drain view point) Drain codes equation (F/2) and (F/2)+1 can sometimes equal the same ammount. So, why does casting a Force 1 spell (F/2) = 2 and a Force 1 spell (F/2)+1 also = 2? (minimum target number has to be 2 remember...not me having bad math) The second spell is supposed to be more complex. So, if you think lame force 1 spells are just that easy, how about a Force 2 spell (F/2) also = 2 and Force 2 spell (F/2)+1 =2. Here, many advantages for the mage for choosing force one over/under the force 2, but the drain is just as easy for either force. Now, a F3 spell (F/2) will also = 2, but no drain change till the equation goes to (F/2)+1 for a F3 which would then be = to 3. So in this scenario, all low level spells (1-3) would be just as easy to cast until you get to a force 3 spell that had the drain code of +1. ( excluding the ones that may have +2 or higher because that changes the results and the actual drain codes of light, moderate, serious and deadly of course, but you get the point) I personally feel mages should take a heftier drain for casting because I rarely have troubles with my mage having high target numbers due to drain and can cast most of the day away. Especially for low force spells that are just pimp with high successes. cough imp. invis. cough cough |
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May 28 2005, 05:34 AM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 |
For one thing your drain calculations are off, IIRC. (F/2)+1 and cast at Force 1 would = 3 Again IIRC there was an official ruling that the +1 in that drain code is added after dividing the spell force by two and reached a final number (which the minimum drain code is always 2) thus the drain force would be 3 If I'm wrong feel free correct me, if I'm can you quote the source. |
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May 28 2005, 07:23 AM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
The drain codes may need to be adjusted in some cases.
However, I rarely have trouble with my street sam taking drain when shooting most of the day away. Or sneaking most of the day away in a ruthenium suit. And they don't even suffer a sustaining penalty while doing so. So I'm not sure that every spell--or even every quite useful spell--needs to come with a drain code that is challenging to resist. |
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May 28 2005, 02:23 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 19-September 04 From: Charleston, IL Member No.: 6,676 |
Not to get back on the ever so popular debate on what characters are better, but what you just said goes the same for ALL characters whereas a mage on top of that has more with his spells. Not being able to disarm a mage is a huge advantage and their is always the on going debate of balancing such character types anyways. |
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May 28 2005, 05:48 PM
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#85
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It is the final Target Number that cannot be lower than 2 in SR3. A (F/2)+1 spell cast at a Force of 1 (or even 2) will have a final Drain Code of 2, not 3. |
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May 28 2005, 09:56 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
You can't disarm a martial arts expert either. Or, you can disarm a magician by using a magemask, if necessary. And magicians suffer losses if they use tech that other characters can use to improve their abilities (and it's hard to disarm cyberspurs, dermal plating, etc.).
There may need to be some rebalancing, but if every spell has a good chance of drain, the weaker spells need to be more potent than they are now. I suppose being wounded could matter a lot less in SR4 so that a caster with M wounds wouldn't be at much of a disadvantage over one who is unwounded. |
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May 28 2005, 11:57 PM
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#87
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Fine. So your GM should use the optional rule presented right there in the BBB, where Force doesn't get cut in half for the purposes of formulating drain codes. It doesn't mean the whole system needs to be re-written from the ground up about how magic works. |
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May 30 2005, 04:43 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 19-September 04 From: Charleston, IL Member No.: 6,676 |
Boy for every time I here someone say.... "Well then your GM blah blah blah".... we are talking about a new system that IS being made and what we would like to be in it. I have loved the game and thought it worked a lot better than others for quite some time. But, after all....it was brought up that certain target numbers are skewed from others and just pointed out an additional scenario. (and my own opinion) You might as well just said "Don't change a thing", not to mention someone could tell you to use the SR3 varient while playing in the SR4.
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May 30 2005, 05:40 PM
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#89
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I hope Drain continues to have about the same impact on characters as it currently does, perhaps just being a touch more difficult (but not much so). If you suffer drain with every single spell you cast (which is pretty much a guarantee at Force), you'll be all but useless on a run except as a one-trick pony.
It would be similar to expecting the samurai to only be allowed to shoot one or two rounds from his Predator before he's exhausted. Now making it so that you can only use Willpower to resist Drain (under the current system), and not Spell Pool, totemic, or Sorcery dice? I wouldn't mind that at all. |
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May 30 2005, 05:57 PM
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#90
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Perhaps you've stumbled upon the explanation for the canon mass of ammo? ;)
~J |
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May 30 2005, 05:59 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Hehe, perhaps. :D
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May 31 2005, 11:14 AM
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#92
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Well since dice pools are gone then you wont have extra dice to resist. But who knows if they are even going to have drain anymore. They did come up with a new magic system for their shiny new core mechanic. |
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May 31 2005, 01:10 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
... I don't think dev have change that deep the magic theory ... It is not only rules, but background that say casting a spell gives drain to the awakened.
May be you now need to use orichalcum powder to cast any spell :silly: ? |
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May 31 2005, 01:34 PM
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#94
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
There's no way to even theorize how Drain will work until we know how damage is resolved. If they are streamlining the game, it's highly doubtful they'll continue on the 9M-style route (I remember that when I was first learning the game, that was the one part I had the most trouble grasping). So worrying about it being Force or half-Force is kind of moot until we know how that mechanic works to begin with.
But idealistically I'd want it the equivalence of the target numbers to remain about the same, just with fewer dice to throw. Six Willpower dice against a 3M Drain for a standard Force 6 spell feels right for me; that's an average of 3 successes, meaning half the time you'll be taking at least Light Drain. |
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May 31 2005, 04:07 PM
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#95
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
They have stated that drain will still be part of the new system. How it is implemented is, of course, a matter for rampant speculation. |
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May 31 2005, 08:17 PM
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#96
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
They also said that they were keeping dice pools, but changing everything about them so they didn't even remotely look or sound like current dice pools. They kept humans too... and air... the game is still set in the future! |
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May 31 2005, 08:32 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Hey now - not too fast there - nobody said nuttin about Air!
:) You need to retract that statement, then fire off an apology to any Devs, play testers or free lancers that may think you are putting words in their mouth! :grinbig: |
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May 31 2005, 10:57 PM
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#98
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Well you can't have that, the TN's now are only 5. 5 is all thew target numbers, with 5 being the number of the counting. Therefore the whole idea is verily right out. Fixed TN's are like that, the only thing that can change on a test is the number of dice and the threshold in SR4. |
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May 31 2005, 11:16 PM
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#99
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'm aware of that. That's why I specifically used the word "equivalence." Or, in other words, I'd like it so that someone with a Willpower of 6 and all other standard Drain-related abilities togther would be able to cast a standard Force 6-equivalent spell (3M Drain currently) with only a 50% chance of taking the equivalence of Light Drain, as that feels just right to me.
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May 31 2005, 11:24 PM
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#100
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Ooops wrong thread.
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