Ranged Combat, the SR3R way Options

[Req]

[SirBedevere]

D'oh! :oops:

[mmu1]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[TheOneRonin]

I'll AE on leading moving targets. I didn't serve in a high-speed unit like Delta (just plain old Mech Inf) but you learn real fast that you can't hit moving targets without leading them.

However, I will say that the MILES gear in service today actually hurts soldiers' ability to engage moving targets. Since you are bascially just playing a glorified game of Laser Tag, you don't ever have to lead your targets. The more these guys train with MILES, the worse they get at target engagement out past 100 meters, or moving target engagement at any range.

But despite the differences, I think it would be generally very easy for a trained soldier to switch from using a firearm to a SR laser weapon. I would say simply dump laser weapons in with the other small arm skills, picking the exact skill that is relative to the size/configuration of the laser. I think either Pistols or Assault Weapons would be ideal.

[Krazy]

and since most CQB involves point shooting instead of real aiming, it wouldn't make much diffrence. and leading doesn't make much diffrence under 100m with a rifle, as the time the bullet is in the air is very small. the leading is more to keep on target while you pull the trigger.

[Raygun]

[Krazy]

when I took a CQB course there wasn't time to aquire sights (although I think I may have been instictivly) so you point-shoot, basicly point the barrel at the target and pull the trigger.
as for lead, yes speed and size matter, I was meaning that at a human sized running speed, lead is more to keep on target as the instinct is to stop and pull the trigger, not follow through. but I'm definitly not a combat expert.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The average human can run ~18mph for short distances, and, to be pedantic, the M855 will have slowed by around 300fps over the first 100 meters (average velocity ~2900fps, might be less, is very unlikely to be more), so you'll have to take about the same lead (~3 feet, 0.9 meters) when firing at a human sprinting at 90 degrees to your line of fire at 100 meters. Not to mention those pesky Horse Shamans with Levitate or Cyberskates...

With the weapon I trained with, the flight time to 150 meters (most common range in our rifle training) was ~0.23 seconds, so of course my views on will be different from those who trained with an M16A2 and did a lot of MILES or similar training -- or indeed someone who trained with this. ;)

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jun 17 2005, 02:52 PM

[Krazy]

standing corrected

[TheOneRonin]

[thinly veiled thread bump]
So Kage, where do you stand on what's been proposed so far, ruleswise?
[/thinly veiled thread bump]

[Kagetenshi]

Overview/discussion coming, just working on some Matrix-related stuff right at this instant.

~J

[ShadowDragon8685]

Then you could, instead of "Unconventional Weapons" have a "Ranged Cyber-Implant" skill to cover any and all silly weapons people might actually implant in their bodies, and be done with it.

Why do I just see a big human sammie with an LMG implanted in his arm, saying "This is my Ultra AC 5."

Then his bigger and more cybered ork sammie buddy steps up behind him with an MMG, saying "This is my Ultra AC 10."

Then their big-ass troll buddy who's so cybered he hums has a Panther AC in his arm, and says "Yo jus' know this is mu UV/AC 20, biiiiitch."

Then they all simultainously say "And anybody who makes a Battletech crack gets introduced to all three!"

:)


And re: Guncanes/bracers only having one round, I just have two words.

"MetalStorm Technology"

Or is it spelled as "Metal Storm," in which case it'd be three words...

[Kagetenshi]

Review:

1) Shotguns are your new god

<In progress>

2) Pistols and their damage codes

<In progress>

3) Skill groupings

Laser weapons are still their own skill but are now grouped with other firearms (can default to/from).

Bracers and gun canes now use Pistols. There's a reason somewhere, I'm sure of it.

Rifles and Assault Rifles now use the same skill.

Eye guns, cyberguns, etc. now use Ranged Cyber-Implant Combat. I'm not entirely happy with this and would prefer to lump them with another skill, but I can't see one that makes sense.

The Blowgun is now under Projectile Weapons

That leaves us with a final skill list of:

• Quickness
  
  <begin linked skill block>
  
  Pistols
  Submachine Guns
  Rifles
  Shotguns
  Laser Weapons
  
  <end linked skill block>
  
  Ranged Cyber-Implant Combat
  
  
• Strength
  
  Throwing Weapons
  Projectile Weapons
  
  <begin linked skill block>
  
  Heavy Weapons
  Spray weapons
  
  <end linked skill block>
  
  
• Intelligence
  
  <begin linked skill block>
  
  Gunnery
  Launch Weapons
  
  <end linked skill block>

Questions/comments?

~J

[Critias]

Looks good so far.

[Yoan]

Lovely! I would like to see Pistols and their damage codes worked out next... 8) Always been a major gripe of mine. I have a binder full of theories, houserules, etc...

[Kagetenshi]

Shotguns, tentative suggestion:

Shot damage follows the current flechette rules (as it seems to me to make some vague sense there, in contrast with actual flechettes—I'm still not sure if I'm going to fix them or not, as while they're insane they're not unbalanced or difficult to use. We'll get to that, though). Choke is gone, shot now applies a flat -1 TN and can only hit one target.

Opinions? This (as far as I can tell) makes it simpler, more balanced, and encourages the uncybered to use shot…

~J

[mmu1]

1. I like it - it's simple and sensible. One question, though - how does this -1 stack (or not stack) with smartlinks, laser sights and scopes (or vision magnification)? Logically, it should, but so should a scope and a smartlink, though for the sake of balance, they don't.

If it's meant to encourage the non-cybered to use it, perhaps it ought to not stack with smartlinks, for example.

2. For some reason, narcojet and other chemical delivery systems are on my mind... :P I think the current system - where a narcojet dart is resisted the same way getting sprayed with acid or a contact poison would be - makes very little sense, since the game does have rules for being injured with a poisoned weapon, which require that weapon to first actually inflict damage. The magical armor-piercing darts need to go. ;)

[Kagetenshi]

1) It stacks with smartlinks, which by current canon are reduced to -1 (out of a usual -2 bonus), so it ends up being a null advantage with a smartlink. By canon laser sights and smartgoggles don't help, so it "stacks" with them for a net -1.

2) I agree. Any suggestions for them?

~J

[mmu1]

[Vaevictis]

As far as skill groupings are concerned, it almost seems that what you guys are looking for is something that cannot be addressed by one single skill per classification. It seems what really needs to be done is combinations of skills adding together for a single die pool on a roll. I know it's not the Shadowrun way, but it seems like that it might more accurately reflect what you're aiming for.

For example, limit each of these to (Linked Attribute)/2 for purposes of increasing karma costs (ie, gets obnoxious after 3 or so on average):

Group One:
Handguns (any small arm primarily braced by the hand)
Rifles (any small arm primarily braced by the shoulder)

Group Two:
Combat Range Aiming (<=250 meters; someone more knowledgable might argue a different range delineation, which is fine -- but you get the idea)
Sniper Range Aiming (>250 meters)

Group Three:
Automatic/Burst Fire
Single Shot/Semi Automatic Fire
Buckshot Ammo

Your die pool consists of the combination of your skills in each of the three skills. For example, you have Handguns (3), Combat Range Aiming (3), Single Shot (1), and you are firing in semi-automatic mode at a target range 80 meters with a handgun -- so you roll 7 dice against the target number. Additionally, if you do not have the correct skill in the appropriate group, you can roll the next-most appropriate skill that you do have in the group as a complimentary skill (ie, 2 successes on complimentary equals 1 on regular).

I know this is more complicated, and is kind of not in harmony with the typical Shadowrun system, but it seems to me that the level of realism you guys want is just incompatible with what the Shadowrun system is capable of delivering.

[Vaevictis]

Regarding shotguns and buckshot style ammo, what about reducing damage level AND power by -1 each time it spreads, -1 TN per time it spreads (to a maximum of say, -3), to a minimum of (2)L, successes only stage on primary target, and non-targets suffer effects similar to suppressive fire (with number of successes to dodge equal to remaining power/2)?

Gosh, that's complicated. But shotguns do blast an area, after all.

EDIT: Hmm, on second thought, why not make shotguns work just like supressive fire PERIOD, with the number of "bullets" in the area being power, or something like that?

[Kagetenshi]

Though I'm not a fan of that idea, that does bring up a question: shotguns and suppressive fire. Should it be able to be used for this, and if so how?

If we're going to allow it to be used, I'd say each shotgun blast requires three successes to dodge but can only be allocated to a one-meter area. As a result, a Semiauto shotgun would be able to effectively suppress a one-meter area while a burst-fire shotgun would be able to suppress up to a three-meter area as desired. Alternately, we could kick it down to two successes per blast and allow semiauto and burst-fire to both fire twice (obviously it would be as a part of a larger suppressive fire action).

Any thoughts?

~J

[Vaevictis]

I dunno about that. The whole idea of supressive fire working like that is that you are spraying the area with bullets until the end of the turn. You can't do that with a non-full-auto weapon.

I think delaying action with a shotgun can achieve a close enough effect, and still ends up being more realistic.

[Austere Emancipa...]