Ranged Combat, the SR3R way Options

[Kagetenshi]

To be honest, I'm inclined to just make them semi-automatic. I could be convinced away from that, though—anyone else want to voice an opinion?

~J

[hyzmarca]

[Chance359]

I like the idea of any weapon that has to be or can be manually cycled to require an extra simple action between shot.

[Fortune]

[Sir_Psycho]

[Wounded Ronin]

The problem with making something SS (or the equivalent) is that after someone fires their last round and reloads you aren't forcing them to throw the bolt again after they pop the new mag in, which is less fun.

If I'm going to go ahead and commit to a bolt action weapon I want every bit of historical panache I can muster from that choice.

[SirBedevere]

While I prefer Kage's idea of making these weapons SA for convenience, as an optional rule use Fortune's idea of having a free action to ready the next shot. IIRC after firing the last round in a magazine of a semi-auto pistol you have to release the slide before you can fire again. Could this be done without a free action if the gun is smartlinked?

I would strongly suggest making this an optional rule however. I know my gaming group would find it irritating.

[Sir_Psycho]

This has got me thinking, it's a way to nerf shotguns appropriately, by making the lower-costing shotguns pump action, and therefore harder to just plug away at some-one with 10S damage, when in many situations, an SMG or even a semi-auto pistol would hold a big advantage.

[nezumi]

*whew* finished reading the whole thread and I've made a list of issues that have come up. I'll try to list them in an easily readable format so people can vote or whatever. These aren't just issues from this thread, but the main thread. Comments and corrections are welcome.

Agreed upon rules:
Ranged combat
- Remove called shots except for style
A) Skills
- Laser weapons skill is in the Firearms category
- Bracers and gun canes use pistols skill
- Rifles and assault rifles use the same skill
- Eye-guns, cyberguns, etc. use Ranged Cyber-implant Combat
- Blowgun is under Projectile Weapons
B) Ammo
- Armor-piercing rounds are only available in HP and heavier varieties
- AV rounds are only available in rifle-class or larger weapons
C) Guns
- Remove shotgun 'choke' rules
- Grenades that decrease in power by 1/m are defensive, 1/.5m are offensive

Under dispute changes:
A)Anything less than a heavy pistol is useless
1) Increase hold-outs to 6M at minimum
2) Decrease Heavy pistols (and SMGs) to 5, 7, or 9M maximum
3) Decrease pistols & SMGs to 7M max, ass. rifles to 11M max, sport/battle rifles to 11S, increase armor values

B) Rifle penetration
1) Rifles divide non-hardened armor value in half (quarter with APDS)
i) hardened armor acts like vehicle armor, ignores bonuses from AP. APDS results in no reduction in DL against hardened armor
2) Each weapon lowers barrier and armor ratings by a flat amount (like -4/-5). Special ammo generally modifies this rating.
3) Rifles subtract a flat amount from armor ratings

C) Better chemical rules, so pepper spray isn't more debilitating than a bullet to the chest

D) Define how armor affects chemical delivery systems like narcojet
1) Narcojet must inflict damage for poison delivery to work
i) Set power to that of light pistols, damage of L

E) Fix shotguns
1) Shotguns CANNOT hit multiple opponents
2) Everyone other than the main target caught in a blast takes at most Moderate damage
3) -2 power, -1 DL per range category (8D/6S/4M/2L), allow the -1TN to stack with SL & laser
4) Choke is set at 1 (or .5)m spread. Alter range categories, including a penalty to power based on range
5) Can reduce TN by 1 by reducing power by 1, to a max of -2 to both
6) Shot uses flechette rules, flat -1TN to hit, can only hit 1 target
7) Reduce TN to hit, but greatly decrease power (opt. no power decrease vs. unarmored opponents)
8) +2 power vs unarmored opponents, -1DL vs armored, -1TN at medium+ ranges
9) Make all clothing or armor hardened vs. shot
10) Invert burst staging rules, every -3 to power reduces DL by 1
11) Every 3m of spread reduces DL by 1, damage never stages up
X still doesn't work for high-powered guns
12) Make them high powered holdouts (8L damage)
13) Add a third ammo type, real flechettes, combining shot and AP rules
X Can this be staged up? If yes, overpowerful, if no, not special

F) CQB rules
1) No change
2) CP is reduced by the difference between the weapon's conceal rating and the Terrain Threshold (open: 0, tight: 3, restricted: 5)
3) Reduce CP based on the type of weapon in question

G) Some rifles (and shotguns) are bolt or pump action, should they be SS or SA?
1) Action makes shot SA
2) Make manual advancement a free action
3) Action makes shot SS
4) Perhaps change the Remington rifles into non-bolt actions, then offer SS bolt and pump guns as new weapons?

H) Autofire problems
1) Recoil modifiers change how many shots in a burst hit, as opposed to TN to hit with entire burst
2) Auto (and burst) fire can be done 5 ways, at shooters option:
1. DL increased per 3 rnds, as standard
2. +1 die to your ranged attack test per round fired to a max of your base skill
3. Increase dodge TN by +1 per round
4. Reduce uncompensated recoil by -1 per 2 rnds
5. Any combination of the above
(In all but the fourth, recoil is calculated as normal. The Power is not modified in any case.)
3) Roll each shot individually



Odds & Ends (unresolved, no suggestions):
1-Remove conceal penalty on SL, laser sight, shock pad
2-SL does not require you pull the trigger to fire
3-Disallow laser sights when using a scope
4-Allow dual-wielding smartlink action!
5-Remove the current gun creation system
6-Scopes require an Aim action to use
7-SL2 reduces launched grenade scatter
8-When hit by a deadly wound, use the attackers successes to stage the power up, then roll to soak, allowing the defender to survive with only 2 successes
9-Remove flechettes, except in shotguns
10-Knock-down rules, if used at all, should be based off damage, not power (since it isn't power of the bullet that knocks you down but a reaction to the damage it causes)
11-Remove/define caseless
12-More available modifiers, especially cover
13-Armor layering needs to, at minimum, be formally defined.
14-Monocular vs. binocular vision - remove monocular penalties for ranged weapons?
15-Regroup launch weapons skills into direct and indirect fire
16-Change offensive grenade damage to -3/m?
17-Smoke grenades expand at a set number of m/turn


*whew*

[nezumi]

All of my tabbing disappeared :(

To respond to my own post...

A - hold-outs - I like giving all weapons with a .22 bullet or higher an M damage code at minimum. If someone makes a bullet smaller than a .22, well then maybe L would be appropriate. Ammo capacity, those few points of power, concealability and available modification slots should be the only differences between an HP and hold-out.

B - I like 3. As raygun pointed out, the Power value currently addresses two very different statistics. By simply saying long-arms (anything using the rifle, gunnery or heavy weapons skill) reduces armor values by a flat -2 would be straight forward and easy to remember. It allows for armor penetration without going as far as Raygun's rules, and without making rifles incredibly deadly against everyone.

C - I think this needs some discussion!

D - I agree with the given suggestion, it makes sense to me.

E - 2, 4 and 10. Make them powerful and they fulfill a specific role, without making them hugely uber.

F - 1 - GM's discretion only

G - 4, minimizes rules changes while allowing for flavor

H - no opinion

1-(remove conceal modifier of some mods) Yes
2-(SL allows triggerless fire) Yes
3-(No laser/scope mix) Yes
4-(dual-wield SL) - offer a partial bonus, but not -2 to both
5-(nix gun creation) no opinion
6-(scopes require aim action) Yes
7-(SL2 reduces scatter) No opinion, but SL2 does need to offer some bonus
8-(Reorder damage/soak rolls to reduce mortality) no opinion
9-(Remove flechettes) no opinion
10-(knock-down based on damage) remove knock-down
11-(Remove/define caseless) No
12-(define cover modifiers better) Yes
13-(Define armor layering) Yes
14-(Monocular vs. binocular) no opinion
15-(launch weapons into direct and indirect fire) Yes
16-(offensive grenade damage to -3/m?) no opinion
17-(Smoke grenades expand slower) Yes

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Sir_Psycho]

We agreed to get rid of called shots? :(

[nezumi]

Herald - yeah, you suggested it around page 3.

Psycho - Kage did, and he's' the boss. I would actually suggest the following modification:

Called shots are against a particular part or component of a person or vehicle. They add a modifier of +4 to +8, at GM's discretion. In the case of vehicles, they may avoid armor, when firing against an unarmored component such as tires or an antenna. In the case of metahumans, it may cause a Wound Effect (as per M&M) (or another similar effect to simulate shooting out knees, shooting guns out of hands, etc.) That is all, they never stage up damage, they never ignore armor (except against vehicles, as stated). This keeps vehicles from being truly and totally invincible, allows for cinematic shots we all love, but isn't unbalancing and cuts down on "AVS called shot to the head!!!111!"

Some other rules changes:
You can fire as many bullets per turn as the gun has ammo, however only a maximum of 10 will hit or may be used for suppressive fire purposes - no change, just flavor so I can yell out that I empty the mag.

This one is listed already, but probably deserves a letter - "More available modifiers, especially cover"

Hard and soft cover modifiers should be listed. In addition, modifiers should be made for size and speed of the target. Size could, hypothetically, shift range modifiers. Speed adds some modifier which doubles when the attacker uses a scope. Tell me if this line of thought isn't worth investigating.

[Kagetenshi]

IIRC, we got rid of called shots except called shots for special effect (like what you describe). The shot would never ignore armor, period, but it might go against the tire's armor instead of the vehicle's (or the antenna's barrier rating, or whatever).

~J

[nezumi]

Alright, "for effect" was a little poorly defined for my taste is all.

Glad to know we're on the same page though. I'll modify my notes.

Edit: I modified my choice for the shotguns. I agree with Herald. The setup based on range categories requires you know the range cut-offs for shotguns, which means referring to the range table again. That's a step we can avoid. Reducing DL every three drops in power means we don't have to remember anything, just do math, and it's internally consistent with burst fire rules, which is a plus.

[nezumi]

Another suggestion made elsewhere...

Two SA shots in a phase against the same target should be counted as a single, two-round burst. This removes the mindset of shooting, waiting to see the result, then shooting again, and forces you to plan the entire action tactically, plus makes more sense considering it basically is exactly that, a two-round burst.

[Kagetenshi]

To my mind, the shoot-observe-shoot paradigm is desirable—it's what distinguishes grenadelinked grenades (which detonate at the end of the seabird, and thus are not available to have their effects observed for the second shot), and is reasonable considering the relatively slow rate of fire of SR combatants.

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Kagetenshi]

Through some unknown crossing of the synapses in my brain, I had originally written "tern" instead of "turn". I decided to run with it.

~J

[Sir_Psycho]

In my games, for realism, when a character performs a headshot on a character who is not wearing a helmet, it bypasses armor AND stages damage up. Although I understand the game destabilizing effects.

[Link]

[Sphynx]

Disagree with making it a 2-shot burst fire. Too often I've seen people shoot 2 seperate targets with those 2 shots. We don't play a shoot-assess-shoot, we play 'declare actions' first, no changing actions in the middle of your turn.

[Herald of Verjig...]

A 2 round burst is almost always less useful than just firing one shot or taking a penalty and trying to hit a second target. However, getting a 6 round burst with that SA/BF weapon may be the difference between the twink having a light wound and a serious.

Combining shooting actions is a benefit if it increases the power and/or damage code significantly, with single shots it's just a waste of a bullet (unless you changed the burst rules somewhere that I missed).

[SirBedevere]

nezumi, here are my thoughts on your list of under dispute changes:

A) 1

B) 3 the amount subtracted from armour ratings, say -3 OR damage code divided by 3 round down?

C) Yes, have to think more on this though

D) Yes i) Yes

E) Tempted to say 'RUN AWAY!'. I know nada about shotguns. I always use slug shots to avoid the problem.

F) 2

G) 2

H) 1

Odds & Ends
1- Yes, except laser sight
2- Agreed
3- Agreed
4- Logically no, but it's so cool I would allow it, at the same target only!
5- Awwwww. Flawed yes, but designing guns is cool!
6- Agreed
7- Agreed
8- Agreed
9- Agreed
10- Should be damaged based
11- Caseless should be better defined
14- The monocular penalties should be removed

Others I haven't decided/thought of an answer.

[nezumi]