Ranged Combat, the SR3R way Options

[Kagetenshi]

I could see the argument there, though I'm not sure I buy it—anyway, with that argument I would require at least that the character arm the grenade in one pass and hold it armed until their next pass, since it doesn't go off until the end of that [term for one person's action which I don't have time to look up now and have forgotten].

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

Would that be hold the throw action for a pass or potentially lose an entire action holding? If there's a potential loss of action, then I'd spend the free or simple to arm and use any potentially lost actions aiming to make the TN easier.

If you could get a version of air-timed thrown grenades...

[Kagetenshi]

One would have to arm the grenade with either a Free or Simple action during their previous combat phase, then hold the grenade (not the action) until their next phase. No actions would be lost (except whatever it takes to arm the grenade), you'd just be stuck holding this armed grenade. Woe betide you if something causes you to lose your next phase.

~J

[Platinum]

[Kagetenshi]

And if you get one success? I'll have to double-check, but I think what you're describing is what happens by canon if you get one success, not zero.

~J

[Kyoto Kid]

...having not yet made it through the entire thread, has there been any change made as to which skills cover the following weapons?

FN AAL GyroJet [CC]
Ares Super Squirt [M&M]
Ares Cascade Rifle [M&M]
Dart Pistols [M&M]
Dart Rifles [M&M]
Splat Guns [M&M
Net Guns [M&M]
Shiawase Blazer [CC]
Flame Throwers [CC]
Cigarette Mini Rocket [S-2064]
Executive Defender [S-2064]
"Screech" Rifle [S-2064]
Integrated Grenade Launcher/Assault Rifle (e.g. Ares Alpha [CC], Colt M22-A2 [BBB])

[nezumi]

The following skill rules have been agreed upon:

- Laser weapons skill is in the Firearms category
- Bracers and gun canes use pistols skill
- Rifles and assault rifles use the same skill
- Eye-guns, cyberguns, etc. use Ranged Cyber-implant Combat
- Blowgun is under Projectile Weapons

I don't think that that covers most of the specific weapons you brought up, so if you'd like to bring up a suggested ruling, you're welcome to.

[Kagetenshi]

SotA:64 isn't in the list of considered books. Other than that, I don't think we've made any changes—the Gyrojet sorta got forgotten about during our discussion of appropriate skill inclusion. I'm still debating sticking it under Pistols, but whate'er. Note that although none of it has changed, some of it will have to change—primarily because several things on that list say "acts like shotgun with choke n", while shotguns no longer have chokes or do any of the things that are being referred to.

~J

[Kyoto Kid]

...omitting the SOTA 2064 weapons since they are fairly unique, I would see it thus:

Pistols skill: Dart Pistol, Super Squirt, FN-AAL Gyrojet, Splat Gun and Net Gun (pistol variety)

Rifles Skill: Dart Rifle, Net Rifle, Splat rifle

Assault Rifles Skill: Ares Cascade Rifle (since it can also fire BF & FA), GLs integrated in ARs by "factory design" (e.g Ares Alpha, Colt M22-A2)

The only odd ones that I find hard to place are the "flamethrower" types.

...comment?

[Kagetenshi]

If anything, I'd move the Super Squirt, Splat Gun, Splat Rile, and Cascade Rifle out into Splash Weapons. Assault Rifles and Rifles have been merged.

~J

[Kyoto Kid]

...that's good to know about ARs & rifles, makes much more sense than grouping ARs with SMGs as done in SR4.

I forgot there was a Splash Weapons skill/category. Does this still include splash grenades and other Chemtech application systems as well?

[Kagetenshi]

Splash grenades are throwing weapons. IIRC the big things that are in splash weapons are the flamethrowers.

~J

[tisoz]

[Kagetenshi]

I suspect that one of us is misinterpreting the applicable rules. Under the current rules as I read them, it does require skill to throw or launch grenades, because if you miss the grenade enters a totally undefined state. What's your reading?

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

Kagetenshi, despite your claims, I see no indication in the SR3 rules on page 118 that a success is needed to throw the grenade. The first part states only "note the number of successes rolled" and the second uses them in "the attacker reduces the scatter distance by 2 meters per success for standard grenades, 4 meters per success for aerodynamic grenades and grenade launchers."

This seems to clearly state that 0 successes is full scatter roll.

[Kagetenshi]

Fair enough; I'd interpreted that differently. So then the only problem I could see with that is that it gives Grenadelinked weapons a very good shot even with no successes—does anyone think that's a problem? If not, we can move on.

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Kagetenshi]

Cannon Companion p32. Reduces scatter on launched grenades to 1d6.

~J

[fistandantilus4....]

This thread, and the other SR3R threads are being moved over to Community Projects. The original Shadowrun 3rd Revised thread will remain in the Shadowrun forum. They're getting quite a lot of traffic and are sticking to the top of the Shadowrun forum, but would be more appropriately placed in Community Projects.

[Link]

[tisoz]

You could also make a first scatter roll to determine where the no success rolled grenade actually hit, then a second scatter roll to see where it "scattered".

[Eyeless Blond]

(repost, plus added ideas)

As for the "I can pull the trigger 10 times in 3 seconds" thing, why not just put that discussion over into the Ranged Combat section? That seems to me like a problem with shooting guns, not a problem with the system dictating movement and reaction.


Why not give every firearm a maximum rate of fire, expressed in bullets per combat turn? Even "semi-automatic" weapons would have a ROF greater than 1 per turn, allowing people to get the empirical results of being able to fire a handgun several times in a 3-second period (though maybe SA weapons would require a Quickness test to fire multiple bullets in a single action?)

This way, everyone would be able to fire the same number of bullets in the same amount of time, getting rid of that silliness where a sam can unload an automatic weapon faster than a mundane. But, since the sams get more actions, he can switch targets between his actions, aiming at a number of targets in a round while the mundane would face either stiff penalties or switching over to suppressive fire to even target the same number of people.

The gun's contribution to recoil suppression, btw, could also be handled on a per turn basis, though perhaps a Str contribution would make more sense on a per init pass basis?

[TheOneRonin]

[Kagetenshi]

FWIW, the current modifiers reflect the "very small modifiers" philosophy. IIRC, a STR of 5 gives you one point, 11 gives you a second point, and 17 gives you a third point.

~J

[nezumi]

I used the 'firing a gun' example just because we all know it's a simple action. Another example would be flipping a light switch. A juiced person should be able to flip the light switch more often than a not juiced person, IMO.

In regards to guns and recoil... The current recoil compensation system has a plus in being simple. All recoil comp works the same, there's not some that work action to action or combat turn to combat turn. That's a good thing, let's keep things simple, apply the same rule to all.

Strength and recoil... Strength is such an underused stat and reaction and body are so overused, I would show preference for strength, primarily for game balance reasons.