New metamagic: Spellweave, Comments welcome Options

[Eyeless Blond]

Had a bit of a brainstorm while readine the Wheel of TIme series, let me know what you think.

Spellweaving

Spellweaving is a way for initiates to temporarily sustain spells without concentration or expensive sustaining foci. This metamagic is actually two seperate techniques, lesser and greater. The lesser has no requirement other than the ability to cast spells; the greater also requires that the caster be able to use Conjuring [up for debate: require lesser weaving, plus Invoking?] . Only one of the two techniques can be learned as a single metamagic; to get the other requires another initiation.

In the lesser version, an initiate simply draws up a simple spell form (a Complex Action) and lets this "weave" sustain the spell for him, much as an elemental would using the Spell Sustaining service. Although very easy to create, such a weave is also very unstable. A spell sustainned in this way loses one point of Force for every (Grade) full Combat Turns it remains in the "weave". A spell that reaches 0 Force or is unable to meet the required Threshold (such as with Shapechange spells) immediately ends.

Just as a mage can take his sustained spell back from an elemental, so can an initiate take his spell back from a weave and sustain it himself; any loss of Force, however, accumulates and is permenant. Thus, a Grade 2 initiate who casts a Force 3 Magic Fingers spell, puts it into a weave for a Turn, takes it back, then puts it into another weave for three Turns will have a Force 1 Magic Fingers spell at the end of the last turn.

The greater version is somewhat trickier: the initiate conjures up what some theorize is a lesser form of an ally spirit or elemental (though this technique is not restricted by tradition; indeed it was a shaman who first discovered it) to sustain the spell for him, and then binds it to the spell. Conjuring this "weave spirit" must be done either while the initiate is sustaining the spell to be woven into it, or the spell must be cast immediately following the conjuration (on the initiate's next available action). The spirit must have a minimum Force equal to the spell being sustained, though there is no inherent upper limit.

Follow the normal rules for conjuring a nature spirit or elemental to determine Target Number and Drain, though no matter how many successes are earned on the Conjuring Test only the one "service" is earned. As with ally spirits, initiates who conjure a weave spirit must invest some of their own magic into the weave: the initiate must give the weave spirit one point of his own Magic attribute. This Magic point comes back to him when the weave spirit's service is finished (when the spell ends normally). If the weave spirit is destroyed, however (see Spell sigils below) the initiate must check for Magic Loss.

Spells sustainned in this way are much more stable than the lesser form, but still degrade over time. Use the same rules as above, but change the time from (Grade) Combat Turns to (Grade) hours. The spirit itself does not degrade, but vanishes (and returns the invested Magic point) if the spell ends, is dispelled, or concentration is reassumed by the caster.

Spell Sigils- The combination of a weave (or weave spirit) with its associated spell is typically called a sigil. Sigils are bright, glowing objects on the Astral plane, much like active foci. Their form depends on the initiate, but usually are small pictograms (shamans and hougans) or complex geometric shapes (hermetics, especially Pythagoreans). Sometimes the sigils themselves "float" in Astral space around the target, other times they stick directly to it. Either way sigils are very obvious when unmasked: when Assensing a sigil a single success tells the perciever the exact Force of the effect, and three successes tells the perciever the exact spell being sustained.

Sigils can be masked much like a normal sustained spell. Lesser sigils behave exactly as normal spells; greater sigils require the initiate mask both the spell and the weave spirit as seperate entities.

Destroying a sigil in astral combat is actually rather easy; they were never designed to take abuse. Treat attacking a sigil as you would attacking a focus or other astral object. In addition, every time the Force of the sigil decreases, the associated spell decreases in power as well, just as it does normally over time. Again, a sigil that reaches 0 Force or is unable to meet the required Threshold (such as with Shapechange spells) immediately ends.


How's that look?

(Edit: 5/31: changed the way greater weave spirits work, and gave initiates something different to think about.)

This post has been edited by Eyeless Blond: Jun 1 2005, 06:40 AM

[weblife]

I agree that the feature would be nice.

But the current canon methods of sustaining a spell, all cost alot of money and are timelimited or karma costly.

A Mage can ask an elemental, costing him 1.000 Nuyen pr. Force, to hold a spell for Force rounds. After which the elemental is disrupted. - This loss in Force is permanent, to my knowledge.

Meaning it costs 1.000 Nuyen pr. combat round of sustaining a spell.

The alternatives are anchoring foci, and sustaining foci. The latter being the most cost efficient. But both are hard to hide at high force, and cost mana and money.

A Shaman only have sustaining and anchoring foci, and of course an Ally Spirit to sustain spells for him. - I can see why you want to introduce this ability, but its vastly overpowered compared to the status quo.

[Eyeless Blond]

[Apathy]

I like it, but I'd require the mage to first learn quickening and anchoring as prerequisites for lesser spell weave, and lesser to be a prerequisite for greater spell weave.

[Eyeless Blond]

Two prereqs? Is it really that restrictive? I was considering Quickening as a prereq for the lesser version, and Invoking as a prereq for the greater version (as it's more of a conjuring variant rather than a sorcery variant of the idea). How that sound instead?

[Aku]

I would say the lesser version shouldnt require a prereq, if i understand it correctly, not only, at grade 1 would you loss a force 6 spell in 6 turns, but the spell would also weaken each of those turns correct? I think thats limiting enough to prevent any major metagaming/min maxing with it.

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm, lemme think of any way to cheese this...

I'll concentrate on the lesser version first.
This first real advantage that I see lesser spell weave giving is the ability to sustain permanent spells until the effects 'stick'. For example, normally magical healing is an out of combat thing, since the sustain time is very long in combat (ties your mage up too much). IIRC, only ally spirits can sustain health spells, so you gain a big advantage by learning lesser weaving.

Example:
I'm a lvl 3 initiate, it's the middle of combat, my buddy Bob has a moderate wound. Normally, I wouldn't heal Bob because the penalty for sustaining the heal spell would pretty much gimp me for the combat.

I cast heal at force 6, getting 3 successes, Bob is heal. I now need to sustain the spell for 10 turns before its effects become permanent. So I take another action to weave it. In 9 turns the spell degrades to force 3 (which is still good enough to heal Bob of three boxes) after the tenth turn, the spell becomes permanent... Even if I died, Bob would still come out ok, as the heal spell would be completed (and his wounds wouldn't pop back open).

This also seems to help in 'environment' type spells like oxygenate, in that I can weave it, and not worry about breathing for a bit.

Next, greater weaving... hoo boy

I'm in the clutches of the evil Doctor What, my armor, foci, and anything else useful has been taken away. Thankfully, my blood filters and nephretic screen have flushed the drugs out of my system and it's time for some payback...

I'm left alone for a few minutes...
I'll greater weave:
Shapchange (nasty animal)
Increased reflexes +3
Combat Sense
Armor
Improved Invisibilty
whatever other cool spells I have laying around

and it's Super Cow to the rescue.

As I'm taking no sustaining penalties, I can stack up as many spells as I know on myself... (maybe limit the number of weaved spells at one time of init grade, or something?)

-----

Lesser weaving dosen't seem to bad, even a powerful initiate (lvl 5-6) can't get more than a few minutes out of a woven spell, and it will be decaying in 'combat time'.

Hmm, the exclusive modifier on spells will prevent weaving, closing a few potential exploits...

----

There needs to be some stacking limit on Greater Weaving, as the spells last though the first few hours (more than enough for your killing spree) at full power...

[Apathy]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Eyeless Blond]

There, added the clarification, as well as some rules for what you actually see when you look at a woven spell.

And I like the word "sigil". Sigil sigil sigil... okay I need to get more sleep. :)

[Apathy]

You don't actually state it in the beginning about the force of the weave spirit, but I'd assume that it would have to be greater than or equal to the force of the spell it was sustaining. Also assuming the weaver spirit would have the same vulnerabilities and problems as an anchoring foci (wards, dispelling/banishing, etc), but couldn't be masked and would have difficulty defending itself (its sustaining a spell, so would have +2 to its TNs).

[Crusher Bob]

Limiting it to charisma may 'shamanize' greater weaving too much, it's not like the shaman is going to be doing anything with all that 'spare' charisma... might as well weave some spells.

I'm not too sure about the TN modifiers, they either make weaving too unattractive (they raise one of the drain targets too high) or are basically irrelevant. If you recover from moderate stun in an hour, it hardly matters that it was 22M that you had to resist...

Limiting the amount of woven spells you can 'hold' on a per spell basis dosen't sound like the best idea some sort of 'space' limited simlar to how tattoos wark feels a bit better, possibly a limiter base on the force or force + drain of the spells vs your, I dunno, magic + init grade?

I'm thinking about adding the drain code somehow, since one of the main spells to sustain is increased reflexes +3, and you only need it at force one...

Using the following trial numbers:
L drain: 'free'
M drain: + 1 force
S drain: +2 force
D drain: +3 force

This would mean that a lvl three initiate with a magic of 9 could hold up to 12 points of spells (crap, forgot that initiation increases your magic rating too).

So we could hold, inc reflexes F1 (4 points), Armor F3 (4 points), and levitate F3 (4 points)... All the spirit drains would be light (1/2 cha or less) for a cha 6 mage (and what mage isn't cha 6+ :love: ), but those limits don't sound too bad. A cyber-mage sorta loses out, but they have cyberware anyway, it's finally a reason to have a really high magic rating.

[Jrayjoker]

I am not too familiar with the ED rules, but using a weave to sustain a spell sounds a lot like the mechanic used in ED for spell matrices. Was this part of you intent?

[Eyeless Blond]

Having total Force = Magic rating is a neat idea, though it is a bit of a weird departure from other rules. Though most of this is a departure already, so maybe that's a good idea.

As for "shamanizing" Greater Weave, well that's a good reason to require Invoking beforehand I think; at that point most shamans will be summoning multiple spirits during the day as well, and come up against limits as well.

And actually I got the idea from Wheel of Time, and how "mages" there could "tie off" weaves, which sustainned them without the caster doing anything, but the weave would slowly degrade over time. But it's neat that ED has something similar; it somewhat legitimizes the whole thing. :)

[fistandantilus4....]

It's an interesting idea. I don't think that I would allow the second one in my game, and would require probably quickening for the first one, but that's 'cause I've seen what happens when mages start throwing up tons of spells on people.

Perhaps for a more balanced version of the greater, have it not degrade until intititate grade in rounds

[Crimson Jack]

[hijack]

Let's also discuss how to incorporate Balefire into the game.

[/hijack]

:P

[Ol' Scratch]

Grab a bunch of sticks, throw 'em on the ground, add match. For extra definition goodness, add dead body on top. There, now you have your very own balefire.

[scoundrel]

I would make the conjuring process and drain calculation for summoning a Greater Weave the same as the ones for calling up a great form spirit. That aside, I think it's a neat idea.

[Eyeless Blond]

[weblife]

Nerf, I cry. Nerf!

There is no precedent of metamagical abilities that require prerequisites. If you feel the need for such, then the power is too strong.

And 6M is by no means a guarenteed Light wound. And a Light wound takes two or three minutes to remove. Nothing with a stimpatch, and nothing with a trauma dampener.

Anyway, my point is thus: You make it too easy to buff up for long periods of time.

Perhaps limit the effect to 1 weave spirit at a time.

The lesser version is almost within paremeters. (well my parameters)

[fistandantilus4....]

[Eyeless Blond]

And a bunch of stuff in SOTA '64. It seems that many of the new metamagics are requiring prereqs, actually. And it makes sense too; the first metas to be discovered would be the "first tier": things that didn't require previous knowledge to use. Now there are some that build upon those.

And the prereqs aren't really for balance at all; they just seemed like things that would be logical to make prerequisites, just like cleansing is a prereq to filtering. The balance comes from the fact that you have to pay Magic points to use this ability. That means you lose Spell Pool dice, you lose higher-level casting abilities, etc. in order to sustain spells, and they might not come back, especially if you're careless about summoning weak weave spirits.

And I'd like to see you sleep off a Light stun wound in three to six minutes. You'd need like 10-20 Willpower minimum for that, plus more considering you're not gauronteed to succeed with every die. Jeez, all your shamans must have half a dozen Force 6 great forms around them all the time, don't they? Why are you worried about weaving if conjuring drain is so easy for your characters to absorb?

But is it really still not strong enough? Should I change the Magic Loss test to just straight up not getting the Magic point back? Should I up the conjuring test to Great Form invoking rules (though that just means high-level initiates have an even easier time)? Is this really that more powerful than just Centering away casting penalties?

[Ol' Scratch]

Okay, if you want to make this a reality while making it fair and on the same level as the other options, here's the basic idea I'd suggest. I'm not going to make it flowery or anything, just gonna lay down a general guideline.

* Require an Enchanting test with a TN equal to twice the Force of the spell you want to sustain (minus the initiate's Grade). This creates a "matrix" that can store the desired spell. Much like Invoking, the caster must cast the spell and resist its Drain in addition to making the Enchanting test, plus a second Drain Resistance Test. Spell Pool and Sorcery cannot be used for the last two tests. Note that the Enchanting Test suffers the +2 (+1 with Focused Concentration) modifier for sustaining a spell, since you must sustain the spell while creating the "matrix" around it. This requires a number of Combat Turns equal to twice the Force of the spell being sustained.

* This "matrix" requires a price to help it maintain the spell, however, and that price is one point of your effective Magic rating per Force. So for the duration of sustaining a Force 3 spell in a "matrix," your Magic is lowered by 3 for all intents and purposes until that matrix is unwoven or destroyed.

* Once a "matrix" is created, the caster loses control over the spell itself in much the same way as a Quickened spell. Control cannot be relinquished back to the caster at any time; they need to unweave the "matrix" and cast/weave the spell again if they wish to change a sustained effect.

* "Matrices" can be destroyed in astral combat, and are more fragile than other astral forms. Lower its effective rating by one-half against any such attacks. If destroyed in this fashion, the original creator of the "matrix" must make a Drain Resistance Test equal to the original Drain Code of the spell. If you wish it to be more brutal, require a Magic Loss Test instead. Otherwise, the "matrix" can be unwoven at any time by its creator, even if they are not within LOS, without consequence as a Free Action. If the caster is conscious, they can donate Sorcery dice to help defend the "matrix" from attack in much the same way as they can defend their Astral Wards.

* A Spellweave Focus can be purchased that gives you a virtual Magic Rating equal to its Force for the sole purpose of creating these "matrices" only, though you might want to consider allowing its Force to aid in the Enchanting and second Drain Resistance Test as per the usual foci rules, too. Prices should be about the same as a Spirit or Power Focus. NOTE: This is particularly nice because it essentially gives you a Sustaining Focus that's incredibly versatile, hence the higher recommended costs.

* These "matrices" are very easy to recognize by a skilled astral observer and are tremendously powerful links that can be used to track down the original creator. Reduce the target number of any tests to astrally track the creator of a "matrix" by the "matrix's" rating. Ditto for identifying the astral signature of its creator.

[weblife]

8 Willpower

Symbiotes reduce base healing time to 30 minutes.

Light Wound, +1 TN.

TN to heal 1 box of light: 3 (2+1)

Successes, average: 5,33

30/5 = 6 minutes

Combine with Trauma Dampener for extra fun.

Both these can fit under 1 point of magic loss, compensate with a geas.

[Crusher Bob]

Hmm, greater weave is now much better.

The new 'optimum path' appears to be the summoning of a single, powerful greater weave spirit to sustain a spell with relatiley low drain... This lets you sustain a goodie like combat sense, armor, etc on yourself... I'd expect most cheese monkeys to dismiss the weave spirit before it loses more than a force or two, to reduce the chances of it being kill, it's better to just resummon. (It still seems to take just a few minutes to do).

I think making it an auto magic loss is too harsh, at this point, you could be invoking instead. Sounds like balance is almost there. Still needs to playtesting, of course/