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> a(nother) playtester's view of SR4, speaking volumes
mfb
post Jun 1 2005, 04:24 PM
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i'm going to just copy and paste a post i made on Shadowland a few days ago. it says just about everything i want to say.

QUOTE (motorfirebox)
i'm really tired.

i'm a playtester for SR4. some people knew that; now, everybody (or at least everybody who reads this page) does. don't ask me for details about the game, i'm not going to break my NDA.

i am going to say that i hate the rules. i hate the basic design philosophy—not the one the devs say they're using, but the one they're actually using. the rules "fix" a shitload of things that really didn't need fixing, and straight-out ignore an even bigger shitload of things that did need fixing. there are a few gems in there; the Matrix rules, for instance, are really neat. i like the stat split. but most of the "okay" changes—few and far between—are not necessary to make a better game. the changes are neat, but they're not better than what they "fix". they're just different.

and the game has a seriously bad base mechanic, one that makes it much harder to write rules for. with SR3's base mechanic, it's easy to decide how a given situation should be represented in terms of TN changes and changes to the number of dice. with the new mechanic, modifiers kinda blur together. i'm not going to cite specific examples, but suffice to say that you end up with some truly crazy situations.

the biggest problem, though, is that they've really dumbed the game down a lot. Patrick Goodman, if you read Dumpshock at all, disagrees with me. i like and respect Goodman, but he's got some very different ideas about the role of game mechanics in RPGs. i'm really not sure why he maintains that the mechanics are not dumbed down, because they very, very much are. there's very little thinking involved; you add up the modifiers and roll your set number of dice, every time. if something goes wrong, you can use Edge to get out of it; other than that, it's d20 with more dice and a less wacky die mechanic.

it's bad enough that i haven't posted any comments on the most recent version of the playtest rules. i'm too tired. there are improvements in the latest version—improvements that came from comments i made, or which at least match those comments. but they're band-aids on a trainwreck victim of a game.


some clarification on what i was talking about, in regards to Goodman's view of game mechanics: from what he's said, he views game mechanics as being almost wholly seperate from the "feel" of the game, the in-character part. i strongly disagree. game mechanics have a very real impact on the feel of the game. for instance, in SR, you can't build a character that can't get killed by the lowliest ganger. SR is a fairly lethal game with a fairly level playing field (or, at least, a playing field that can be levelled with by giving the underdogs better weapons). this gritty violence is an earmark of cyberpunk, and it's brought into SR by the rules. if SR used D&D-style hit points, you wouldn't get that.

so when Goodman says that the SR4 mechanics still "feel" like Shadowrun, he means something completely different than i would if i were to say that. if you limit your definition of "feels like SR" to "roll handsfull of dice against a TN and count the successes", he's absolutely correct. i have more stringent criteria.

that said? i've got very different opinions from a lot of you, about what the rules should be like. this is obvious if you look back through the SR3 threads, and see how often i held up a minority viewpoint. to be perfectly honest, i'm not who they're writing SR4 for. i like complex mechanics (as long as they're complex for a good reason), and i like player management of combat. if you like a simple game, and combat is something you want to just get through, SR4's your game. it's not mine.
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Eldritch
post Jun 1 2005, 04:31 PM
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Whoa.

and

Wow.


(Heh, not a CD2.0 Wow, an Eldritch wow :) )
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hermit
post Jun 1 2005, 04:41 PM
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Looks like I'm more with Goodman than with you, mfb, concering my understanding of rules and RPG world interaction.

But many, many thanks for your comments anyway. They really help in figuring out what SR4 will be like.
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Jrayjoker
post Jun 1 2005, 04:45 PM
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Thanks very much for your perspective. I feel sad for you, having input but no power over the cahnges to the game you love.
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SirBedevere
post Jun 1 2005, 05:50 PM
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Thank you mfb for being up-front and delivering the news as you see it. Like you I think that rules are an integral part of an RPG, not just the setting.

This is very depressing :( :( :(
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fistandantilus4....
post Jun 1 2005, 05:52 PM
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Ouch

An informed and dissapointed second opinion. Pretty much what I've been dreading.I'm already tring to think of ways to make a bastardized combination of SR 3 and 4 rules now.

I agree that roll- hit -damage is not what I'm looking for in SR, and I'm pretty dissapointed to hear that's where it's going.Hopefull there's still some time for improvement. I have a bad feeling I'll be buying the new core book just to confirm that I don't really want it, and then spend the next years worth of rules books reverse engineering everything. fun...

Worst part is that up until now, I've been in the "wait patiently and see" camp. Think I might have to move my tent over near "dreading the fall". Hope it's not that bad.
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ENHenry
post Jun 1 2005, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE
other than that, it's d20 with more dice and a less wacky die mechanic.


It's too bad you're under an NDA, and can't explain what you mean by this, because it doesn't follow. Saying, "it's like the WOD" I could understand, but it's a pretty far cry from D&D, in that the range of success and failure is MUCH wider when you're counting successes. In d20, there's a point past which people almost can't fail; however, if number of successes are an issue, you'd have to roll so many dice you'd need an ice chest to roll them before you started talking about little to no chance of failure.
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GaiasWrath8
post Jun 1 2005, 07:14 PM
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After reading this thread I have come to two conclutions.

1. A real man can still cry.
2. I will not buy SR4, I will insted wait for my friends to buy it and then make fun of them for it.

P.S. This sucks.
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Nerbert
post Jun 1 2005, 07:30 PM
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I'm with PG on this one. I don't consider the dice mechanics to be a distinguishing feature of Shadowrun anymore then I do them to be a distinguishing feature of Axis and Allies.

Do I get to play a Troll? Can I have a cyber arm? Can I say "hoop" and "frag"? Why then I must be playing Shadowrun.
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Bigity
post Jun 1 2005, 07:32 PM
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Not really.

That may be your opinion, which is equally as valid as my opinion, which is that Shadowrun is equal parts rules, and setting.
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Daegann
post Jun 1 2005, 07:37 PM
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> SR4 is not finnished, games mecanics is pretty different from SR3 so all SR player can't be happy with the new version. However for me change I saw during playtest make me happy it was generaly things I'd like to see n SR so for me it's really good.
It's true that all isn't fixed and that we have a lot of work before the release however I'm confident in the dev team and other playtester to solve problem. because yes as I said, there are some problem but don't worry, we have many possibility. NDA exist also to not tell you bad ideas which can disgust you and that finaly isn't in the core book. Keep in mind that all you can read from playtester is a) a subjective point of biew and b) subject to changes before the release.
I can just say that I will surely prefer SR4 to SR3 but it's my point of view and assuming that some things will be fixed during the rest of the playtest ^^ So... wait and see and have your own judgement ^^

P.S. sorry for my english :P
> Daegann
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Lindt
post Jun 1 2005, 07:38 PM
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Thank you for your input MFB. I respect your writing and with your help (and others by now) Im slowly going from the "wait and see" camp to the "Nope, this blows bubba the love troll" camp.

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Gambitt
post Jun 1 2005, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
SR is a fairly lethal game with a fairly level playing field (or, at least, a playing field that can be levelled with by giving the underdogs better weapons). this gritty violence is an earmark of cyberpunk, and it's brought into SR by the rules. if SR used D&D-style hit points, you wouldn't get that.


If this is the case, then i will not be playing SR4. I dont give a damn what rules they change, but if it fundamentally changes the way the world feels then im out.
(by the way, this is from a person whos been on the positive side of SR4 from announcement up until this thread)

P.S your english is good Daegann, i only wish my own language skills were better.
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Smed
post Jun 1 2005, 07:50 PM
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I agree with MFB. The dice mechanics are an integral part of the game. They set the Physics of the gaming world, the games lethality, and a variety of other things.


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Wireknight
post Jun 1 2005, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Nerbert)
Do I get to play a Troll? Can I have a cyber arm? Can I say "hoop" and "frag"? Why then I must be playing Shadowrun.

Or d20 Future.
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Eyeless Blond
post Jun 1 2005, 08:02 PM
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My opinion I guess coincides with Bigity and others: mechanics are important to a game insofar that mechanics can really change the feel of a game if they're done poorly. Take a look, for instance, at the current rules for spotting magic. The flavor text makes magic out to be subtle, that casting is really hard to notice unless you're really looking for it. The rules, however, make it only a little bit harder to notice than pointing a gun to someone's forehead and pulling the trigger.

Mechanics, IMO, are really only important if you screw them up. If the way you get something done through the game mechanics contrasts so completely with the way the game mechanics indicate that it is supposed to be done that it ruins the suspension of disbelief then you have a problem; otherwise they are pretty much fine. mfb's comments here indicate that the game mechanics, for him at least, actually impede with his enjoyment of the game. I picked up on two main objections here:

1) He says that the way modifiers are applied seem counterintuitive and arbitrary, that they "blur together."
2) He says that there is a general lack of situation-level tactics, that "there's very little thinking involved."

Of the two, it's the first that worried me the most, and is setting off big alarm bells in my head right now. The second may well just come down to a veteran's whining about the lack of tactical pool dice, something whose importance is debatable. The first, though--that the main dice mechanic is confusing at a fundamental level--is incredibly worrisome, and really needs to be brought to the powers-that-be in more detail. This is a hugely critical issue that I think would need to be dealt with before the game can be published.

I encourage mfb to really stress this one to the game developers, because if he's right and the core mechanic is confusing and counterintuitive that's going to basically make the game unplayable in a mass-market sense.
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Eldritch
post Jun 1 2005, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (Wireknight)
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 1 2005, 07:30 PM)
Do I get to play a Troll?  Can I have a cyber arm?  Can I say "hoop" and "frag"?  Why then I must be playing Shadowrun.

Or d20 Future.

Ahem - D20 Modern+Urban arcana+D20 Future+D20 Cybertechnology

Then you've got it.

Oh Yeah + Shadowrun Slang Glossary. :)
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nezumi
post Jun 1 2005, 08:12 PM
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Hey Kage, do you accept paypal or credit card for SR3R? I'd like to pre-order now.
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Wireknight
post Jun 1 2005, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (Eldritch)
Ahem - D20 Modern+Urban arcana+D20 Future+D20 Cybertechnology

Then you've got it.

Oh Yeah + Shadowrun Slang Glossary. :)

Hmm, maybe d20's modability has just gotten me a bit confused. I was pretty sure d20 Modern featured magical stuff and even trolls as "monsters" (all monsters below a certain CR being essentially playable races) and that the d20 Future book's cyberpunk section just allowed those rules to be tacked onto any d20 Modern game. As far as lingo goes, you can say whatever you want in a game.

However, nitpicks aside, I don't think a d20 variant of Shadowrun would really be the same type of game, with the same type of feel, as the existing d6 variable TN# system, and likewise with the emergent d6 static TN# system. This also goes for the d6 variable versus d6 static systems. I toyed with the idea of throwing together a few d20 systems together to produce a Shadowrun-inclusive rules system, and was ultimately displeased. I eventually figured out that d20 just couldn't do Shadowrun the way I liked.

That being said, the major problem I have with SR4 is the number of logical absurdities that it introduces. I hate it when, with SR3, or any game I play, my ability to suspend disbelief is simply insufficient to justify certain aspects of the system's behavior. Good examples of this in SR3 are most Athletics-based activities (an unaugmented individual sprinting with a high Athletics score can leave current Olympic record-setters in the dust; a character tends to be capable of jumping unrealistic distances vertically, but relatively puny distances horizontally; weight-lifting/carrying and encumbrance are similarly broken). Another good example is that an average character, wearing pretty impressive ballistic protection, is still not going to shrug off a 10mm round(9M). Conversely, a 9mm round(6L) will be almost like a pinprick... but if your Body is low, your armor still won't really stop it very well.

d20's HP system has always bugged me. You just can't kill someone with one lucky shot, if they're high enough level. An L20 warrior with decent Constitution could probably be put in a guillotine and suffer less than 50% of their HP in damage. They can routinely suffer a dozen deep (i.e. full damage) stab wounds and be likewise fairly far from actually needing to worry about their low HP. A couple whacks with a greatsword? What's 15-20 HP when I've got 200 or so? No matter how tough you are, I don't think you should be tougher than a siege engine or a castle wall.

I see SR4 introducing more of these sorts of situations than it'll resolve. They're honestly relatively few and far between in SR3, though when they manifest they drive me nuts. If SR4 makes these things more prevalent, and/or does not fix the existing absurdities, I'll just snap. No one wants that. Trust me.
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BitBasher
post Jun 1 2005, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)
Hey Kage, do you accept paypal or credit card for SR3R? I'd like to pre-order now.

Seconded. :(
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Eldritch
post Jun 1 2005, 09:23 PM
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You are right - D20 mod has some magic/psi/eetc. Urban Arcana expands on it. Future has aliens, cyber, nanotech, bio tech, star ships etc. And they have a cybertech book on the horizon that'll have expended Cyber and VRNet rules.


No, I agree; SR is as much setting as rules. You could make a Sr like game with D20, but it would'nt have the same feel as SR. Mechanics are all different. (:) Duh)

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hobgoblin
post Jun 1 2005, 09:33 PM
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feel free to call me slow but i didnt know mfb was part of the playtest group...
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Nerbert
post Jun 1 2005, 09:36 PM
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I think the SR Troll was the hook that caught me on the game. The passage in the BBB written by the Troll was great, the art was great. I remember I wanted to figure out how Big a Troll really was. Turns out they can only fit through my front door sideways, and spend most of their time indoors hunched over.

You just get this great sense of playing a massive, fierce, hulking, scary, thing. Speaking of things, Troll vs The Thing... no contest.

Its true though that a lot of the themes of a game are determined by the mechanics. For example, SR has no morality mechanic whatsoever. Not even alignment. Karma can be used to reward good and bad, but it gives the Shadowrun universe a very capricious sense of what's right and wrong.

It sounds to me that they're sacrificing some of the gamist themes to expand on some of the role playing themes.
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Charon
post Jun 1 2005, 09:42 PM
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So Patrick loves SR4 and motor hates it. Gamers will be gamers. I read through the post but all I got from it is this :

QUOTE (motorfirebox)
i'm really tired.
there are a few gems in there; the Matrix rules, for instance, are really neat.



Yay!
If an admitted SR4 hater likes the Matrix rule, it makes me all giddy. :D
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Jrayjoker
post Jun 1 2005, 09:52 PM
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He also stated that the matrix rules were neat, but not enough to make the difference.
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