Shapechange & Transform, Spinoff from best 3 spells Options

[weblife]

This is from the other thread:

[fistandantilus4....]

sure, why not!? You shape change in to a troll, but you have to look exaclty the same ? No way, why would you. So why coudln't you shapechange into another person of the same race (w/ a disguise check of course), or whatever. Upside, no chance to overcome the illusion. Downside, higher drain and threshold. They can still see you on the astral of course.

Doesn't the example in the book give you an example of the threshold needed to transform into a troll with a higer body?

This post has been edited by fistandantilus3.0: Jun 2 2005, 08:24 AM

[Edward]

The question is can you shape shift into a metahuman shape.

I believe the official answer is no. but I would like to see a way to do this.

Part of it is that mask is resisted buy those that try to observe you (something I don’t particularly like ether) so even if you cast it successfully you can still be detected, shape change being a physical change can not be detected buy mundane means (unless you do something silly like change your dwarf into a troll and forget to duck)

Edward

[Ol' Scratch]

Makeover and Fashion are the spells you use to create a real "mask" for your character. They don't alter your overall size or race, but they do let you change your appearance to anything you like.

But that aside, if you do allow Shapechange to do this, note that when you do turn into another race, you're just going to be an average specimen. That means all of your physical attributes will be 3 (modified by racial bonuses) regardless of what yours were to begin with, and nothing in the Shapechange spell description states that you have any control over the gender or appearance of the new form.

[fistandantilus4....]

doesn't it have a threshold of the body though? So wouldn't that mean that there was a way to effect at least that attribute?

[Edward]

I think you should be able to chose the non mechanical variable traits of the creature you turn into, things like height, hair skin & eye colour the exact length of the snout, all provided you chose within the normal range for the animal (no pink pandas), if trying to imitate a specific animal (or metahuman if allowed) a stealth check would be required with significant bonuses to the person being disguised.

Edward

[fistandantilus4....]

there's rules for disguise check in SOTA '63 (somewhere). It makes no sense to me in game that you could transrom into a raging bear, a monkey, a bird, a fish, but not a dwarf, or your same reace, different gender. Out of game, it makes sense, because it's a hell of a lot better than the Mask spell, because it's not an illusion.

But if you were a mage designing a spell, would you go "hmmm. I think I would like to be able to turn into a raging bear, a monkey, a bird, a fish, but not a dwarf, or my race, but another gender." It just doens't make any sense in game. It's metagaming spell creation. Like removing mana barrier to keep players from throwing it at people on motor cycles.

That's my opinion and it could be wrong. Just trying to look at it logically. It seems a lot easy to make small changes to your body (i.e. cahnging race), than something drastic (like turning into a fish. Sorry! Crittter!).

[nick012000]

Yeah, I'd let you do it. Even the "Critters only" pedantry doesn't work because the average metahumans are listed in Critters. :D

[Ol' Scratch]

But not as a Normal Critter, which is a specific category of Critter. (Critters p. 19). Indeed, metahumans are listed in a completely seperate table right under the Normal Critter listing.

[nezumi]

Sure you can shapechange to hide your identity. I mean seriously, if Karl turned into a dog and was walking down the street as such, if Sam sees him he's not going to instantly recognize the dog as being Karl. That's ridiculous. If Sam could see astrally, it would be a different question, of course.

However, you can't use shapechange to change any of your mental stats (wil, int or cha).

[weblife]

Shapechange is limited by size constraints of your clothing. You can't just turn into a Troll if you are a Human. - Unless you wear super spandex, you're going to chafe all over and be wearing rags. 8)

As for changing to a "generic other" person, with 3 BOD, 3 STR, 3 QUI, its tolerable, but not really understandable. If I want to Hide though, its ok that my form isn't bulging with muscles.

Be aware though, that it will be easier to switch into a generic Orc, than "another human", because of the smaller Body difference. Thats kinda odd.

But for attributes, I suppose this spell is also in competition with the Increase Body, Increase Strength and Increase Quickness spells.

Perhaps a little houseruling is in order?

My suggestion:

If form chosen has variable attributes (like most metahumans), then the caster may choose to keep his own attributes if they are higher than the "generic average" of the species. He may choose to lower them aswell.

If the casters attributes are less than the generic forms, then he gets the generic forms attributes. He cannot raise these unless he casts an increase attribute spell.

[wagnern]

oh, new question: Shapechange actualy changes your shape, and does not affect equiptment or clothing. (Am I correct?) So, what happens to the cyber? If you turn into a duck, and your cyber eye does not change . . . it could get very messy.

House rule suggestion/option:
If someone wants to shape change into a more specific form, just raise the target numbers for casting the spell. I don't know, start at +1 for a specific criteria (gender, race, height exc), go to +2 for several criteria at wonce, to +4 for total control over the appearance of the form, (such as copying an indivisual). Maby with an additional +1 (or maby +2) adder for the ability to keep your own physical stats. (modifyed for your new racial bonuses)
Of course, disquise skills would be needed to copy someone.

[Ol' Scratch]

Cyberware is paid for with Essence and, for all intents and purposes unless specificially stated otherwise, is considered a part of "you" for spells. Thus it becomes a part of your new form, just like the rest of you.

[nezumi]

I recollect reading somewhere that the cyber changes with you, but doesn't function. So your boosted reflexes will not work as long as the transformation spell is sustained. Your cybereyes will work just as well as as the critter's natural eyes.

Imagine cyber as being part of yourself, but it makes you no longer average. The average critter you're turning into doesn't have cyber, so your cyber 'disappears' (but doesn't get messy).

[weblife]

[Rev]

Yea, shapechange is best if you have body 4 or less. Especially because under the only 3 spells thing you want to be able to shapeshift into a bird or mouse to get the maximum flexibility from the spell (a sort of levitation and invisibility).

Personally I think "normal critter" means non-magical non-metahuman animal.

Phantasm is the one that could maybe fake a mask spell, or even control thoughts against a single target (presuming you play that it is the godlike spell of controling peoples thoughts in a subltle enough way that they don't even know they are being controlled).

I would probably also say that the cyber stays in your shapeshifted form, but all deformed & soforth so that the charachter can still set off metal detectors, etc, just to be evil. :) To be really evil perhaps a charachter with cybereyes should end up blind any time they shapeshift... the cybereyes are still there, but all distorted so they don't work! Heh.

[Ol' Scratch]

[weblife]

Useless spell. Oh well. Off to other things.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's only useless if you can't figure out why it's anything but (which it is -- in fact I'd call it one of the most useful spells in the game). It's no fault of the spell or the game that you expect it to do something it's not supposed to do, which is why spells like Makeover and Mask exist.

In fact you might as well be complaining that Manabolt doesn't do stun and all of the elemental damage types, too.

[weblife]

No mistaking, its a good and powerful spell. If your natural BOD is 5 or less.

But yes, I am looking at Makeover right now. I didn't really focus on the bits with "including cosmetics, hair and clothes".

But that conflicts a little with Fashion, which can only affect armor with a combined rating that is less than Force. This is not mentioned under Makeover. This leads me to think Makeover can only clean, iron and maybe color your clothes.

Second, the spell is permanent, and includes "cosmetics", that sounds like something I can wipe off later or something. Does that, or can that, include fake beard, improved chin etc.? - If it can, then Makeover is the spell I was looking for.

[nezumi]

[Bigity]

I think I still use the SR2 version of Shapechange..so that someone might actually use it.

[Ol' Scratch]

Actually the spell specifies "normal critter," and again, "normal critter" is a specific type of entity in the game, as detailed on page 19 of Critters. Metahumans are not "normal critters."

But, again, you're free to do whatever you like with your games. :)

[nezumi]

[Ol' Scratch]

1) Critters is a 3rd Edition booklet that was included with the GM Screen.

2) As mentioned twice before, the spell's description specifically mentions "normal critters," and the Critters sourcebook specificially lists what "normal critters" are, complete with stat blocks.

3) "Normal critters" do indeed include tigers, bats, elephants, and even sharks. They do not include metahumans, vampires, dragons, or any of the other beings in the Critters sourcebook.

4) They're "redefining" the term as much as they are with any other game term. "Normal critters" means something very specific within the game, just like "Drain," "Attribute," and "Force" have very specific meanings within the game.