Newbie Question about Spell Force Levels

Newbie Question about Spell Force Levels, How high of a force do I need?

nick012000 View Member Profile	Jun 9 2005, 07:54 AM Post #51
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398	Don't Allies and bound Free Spirits owe you infinite services?

Modesitt

Jun 9 2005, 09:06 AM

Post #52

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Free Spirits:

QUOTE ("Magic in the Streets @ pg 115, right column")

If the binding test succeeds, the spirit is bound. It cannot disobey specific orders, nor can it directly attack or harm its master. It must come when called, like a bound spirit, and it never runs out of services.

I'm not seeing that being particularily ambiguous.

Ally spirits are slightly more ambiguous. Emphasis all mine.

QUOTE ("The heading on pg 109")

Services of Allies

QUOTE ("Pg 110")

Ordering the spirit to perform a service takes a simple action, though the magician can tell the spirit to be ready to perform a specific service for him without using an action. As a spirit becomes more independent, it may perform some services without being told.

QUOTE ("Under the heading Resist Drain on pg 110")

This service is agonizing to the ally spirit...An ally may remain in astral form and provide this service to its summoner.

QUOTE ("Pg 110)

Other services
The ally's master may send it off to perform physical services...

QUOTE ("Pg 112 @ right column")

An ally spirit need not provide services to help its master succeed or Resist drain in its own ritual of change. It can help if it wishes, but this one time it may refuse a service to its master.

So Cain, is your justification that an ally spirit provides you services without actually owing you any? I can't think of any other justification.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Jun 9 2005, 12:48 PM Post #53
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	The thing is, even if you do allow them in your game, the moment you channel either of them you lose all remaining services. Even if those services are infinite, you just gave them all up for that particular service. So now you'll have a free spirit who's free to do whatever he likes to you after the channeling is complete (and with you ripe for the picking thanks to that Deadly drain you just had to resist), and the ally spirit will be in a similar position to do whatever it feels like doing. And yes, the word "all" is every bit as infinite as "infinite" is, save that "all" is a very non-conditional term.

toturi

Jun 9 2005, 01:39 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

The thing is, even if you do allow them in your game, the moment you channel either of them you lose *all* remaining services. Even if those services are infinite, you just gave them *all* up for that particular service. So now you'll have a free spirit who's free to do whatever he likes to you after the channeling is complete (and with you ripe for the picking thanks to that Deadly drain you just had to resist), and the ally spirit will be in a similar position to do whatever it feels like doing.

And yes, the word "all" is every bit as infinite as "infinite" is, save that "all" is a very non-conditional term.

Actually you are wrong, Doc. The remaining services are removed at the end of the channeling. If you lose the remaining services at the moment you channel as you posited, you may rebond the spirit while you are channeling it, since you retain all your abilities while channeling.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Jun 9 2005, 04:15 PM Post #55
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	Err, that's what I was saying, hence you being weakened by the Deadly drain comment that occurs after you've channeled.

weblife View Member Profile	Jun 9 2005, 09:00 PM Post #56
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318	Where can i find the channelling metamagic?

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Jun 9 2005, 09:03 PM Post #57
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Johnnycache

Jun 9 2005, 09:27 PM

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

The thing is, even if you do allow them in your game, the moment you channel either of them you lose *all* remaining services. Even if those services are infinite, you just gave them *all* up for that particular service. So now you'll have a free spirit who's free to do whatever he likes to you after the channeling is complete (and with you ripe for the picking thanks to that Deadly drain you just had to resist), and the ally spirit will be in a similar position to do whatever it feels like doing.

And yes, the word "all" is every bit as infinite as "infinite" is, save that "all" is a very non-conditional term.

I don't like that as much as I like the idea of a necromancer type mage, compelling the same tortured spirit to boost his powers over and over again.

I don't think the rules intend channeling a bound spirit to free it - I think it's an oversight. I have to question the wisdom of enforcing the letter of the rule if that's how you read it - the spirit's already getting more of a chance then normal by making you take drain. If you ordered the spirit to do the same action or use the same powers for without channeling, it'd just have to do it - I just think channeling a spectre would be rob zombie creepy.

I think the rule I'd use would be if the drain knocks you out it can try to go free, just so the guy can't keep the thing channeled all the time - that's the real issue, right?

Panzergeist View Member Profile	Jun 9 2005, 11:52 PM Post #59
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676	It depends on the spell. Some need a high force, either because the effect is limited by the force, or to make it hard to resist. Others dont need a high force, either because you can just get so many successes that it's okay if the target gets a few, or because the effect is not very much limited by the number of successes.

tisoz

Jun 14 2005, 08:38 AM

Post #60

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QUOTE (Johnnycache)

I don't think the rules intend channeling a bound spirit to free it - I think it's an oversight.

I don't think the rules intended channeling a bound free spirit or ally. The provision for no longer owing any services and departing to the metaplanes makes for a heavy cost for those that wish to cheese it up.

weblife View Member Profile	Jun 14 2005, 10:48 AM Post #61
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318	I've now read up on the Channelling metamagic. And I like what I see. Its just like posession, just with the PC in control instead of the spirit, and the knocking unconscious part moved to the end of the period. Anyhow, the way I see it, most people will be able to channel force 1-3 spirits without taking serious drain or going unconscious after doing so. This seems pretty well balanced overall. Its sorta like a multi attribute buff, that leaves you winded after the duration. Kinda like drugs. Getting immunity to normal weapons (ifs its a greatform) is very cool. Unbalanced? - That really depends on the campaign. But getting cornered, and channelling a greatform F6 Storm spirit, mwahahaaha. It has to be tried. 10 minutes of Godhood while your buddies run to safety.

Gilthanis

Jun 15 2005, 08:53 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (weblife)

I've now read up on the Channelling metamagic. And I like what I see. Its just like posession, just with the PC in control instead of the spirit, and the knocking unconscious part moved to the end of the period.

Anyhow, the way I see it, most people will be able to channel force 1-3 spirits without taking serious drain or going unconscious after doing so.

This seems pretty well balanced overall.

Its sorta like a multi attribute buff, that leaves you winded after the duration. Kinda like drugs.

Getting immunity to normal weapons (ifs its a greatform) is very cool. Unbalanced? - That really depends on the campaign.

But getting cornered, and channelling a greatform F6 Storm spirit, mwahahaaha. It has to be tried. 10 minutes of Godhood while your buddies run to safety.

Where does it say that channeling a Great Form gives you the Immunity to Normal weapons? I must have over-read that one. Can you give page references? I know the debate on channeling Ally spirits have been discussed in the past and when I e-mailed Fanpro this is what they said:

You can't channel a watcher. They can't handle it. They can't even materialize on the physical plane.

For now, the channeling metamagic can only be used with spirits that owe services, so you can't do it with Ally spirits or bound (formerly Free) Spirits. Though we may come out with an expansion of the rules at some future time.

You can, of course, make house rules that work in your campaign if you want some other outcome.

Good luck.

Signed,
ShadowFaq

I hope that helps clarify some of the points being made or assumed.

Gilthanis

Jun 15 2005, 09:06 PM

Post #63

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QUOTE (tisoz @ Jun 8 2005, 11:38 PM)

QUOTE (Gilthanis @ Jun 3 2005, 04:30 PM)

We always house ruled the minimum karma cost of one point. Otherwise there wasn't any reason for a mage not to know all spells at the rating of 1 because of that. Not to mention spells acquired through astral quests once the mage initiates.

No need to house rule the reduced karma cost for the astral quest assisted spells, the rules already state minimum cost of 1.

Sorry Tisoz. Didn't mean to confuse that part. We knew that astral quests had a minimum of one karma, I was combining the karma limit on exclusive spells with the munchkin effect of learning every spell at force one once you can do astral quests. There is no reason a mage wouldn't have every spell at force one when you can do astral quests in virtually a few seconds with the cost of one karma each.

EDIT\ Here is te link to the previous thread I referred to: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...wtopic=5732&hl=

Ol' Scratch

Jun 15 2005, 09:57 PM

Post #64

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QUOTE (Gilthanis)

Where does it say that channeling a Great Form gives you the Immunity to Normal weapons? I must have over-read that one. Can you give page references?

In the text for Channeling (see the first full paragraph on T:AL p. 110).

QUOTE

You can't channel a watcher. They can't handle it. They can't even materialize on the physical plane.

While I agree that watchers, free spirits, and ally spirits shouldn't be able to be used since none of them owe services, that last point is sort of silly since 1) loa spirits can't materialize either, and 2) the text for Channeling describes it as drawing the astral form of the spirit into their body.

Fortune

Jun 17 2005, 05:33 PM

Post #65

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jun 3 2005, 07:21 PM)

* Stunbolt 6 (Fetish for Drain) [6 Spell Points]

This will be your primary attack spell against living targets and spirits. Its already low drain lowered further by the fetish limitation (which effectively makes it a Force 5 spell for purposes of determining the Drain Code) means you can get away casting it at Moderate or even Serious damage without ill effect.

The only real gain in taking Force 6 Stunbolt with a fetish for Drain is if you plan to cast it while sustaining other spells, or have some other Drain Resistance TN penalty. Drain for Stunbolt at Force 6 is already 2 (-1[DL]).

It's a great list Doc. Excellent advice!

The only thing I would add as a necessity (and which I haven't seen mentioned yet) would be Oxygenate at Force 1. I would pay the Spell Point though, and not get it with any restrictions.

As was said, Catalog (Exclusive) and Mindlink (Extended) are nice at minimal Force, as is Physical Camouflage.

A good thing to remember are the spell modifiers, especially when it comes to Detection spells. The Caster Only and Extended modifiers can be combined to good effect without raising the Drain Code of the spell.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Drain rounds down, so unless you are taking a spell at Force 6 (or Force 2 Exclusive), odds are you'd be well-served to take it at a Force of 3 or 5 (or, of course, Force 1).

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