Vampire: The M/R vs Shadowrun 4 Options

[nezumi]

Doc, I hadn't seen rulesets previously mentioned as being different from mechanics (but it's a long thread, and I've only been glancing). If it's already typed out, I'll go back and look for it. If not, would you mind giving a more precise definition of what's ruleset and what's mechanics? Because they're all the same in my book.

[Ol' Scratch]

Dice Mechanic: The most fundamental way the dice are used to determine an outcome. In SR3, the dice mechanic is "multiple d6s rolled against a variable target number; each die meeting or beating that TN is a success." In the old Storyteller system, the dice mechanic was "multiple d10s rolled against a variable target number; each die meeting or beating that TN is a success." In the d20 System, the dice mechanic is "d20 versus a variable target number; fail or succeed." In the Silhouette system (my personal favorite), the dice mechanic is "multiple d6's against a variable target number to determine a single outcome; success determined by range from TN."

Rules: Everything else, including determining how many dice to use or how to calculate modifiers, exceptions to the base mechanic (such as the Rule of Six), what successes mean, whether resistance rolls are used or not, and etc.

[mfb]

i didn't say die mechanic. i said die mechanics, plural. you're right, a single die mechanic might not have much of an impact (though it can), but i'm talking about the system as a whole, not just a single mechanic. i suppose, in Funk-speak, i'm talking about rules. whichever.

[Ol' Scratch]

In that case you're talking about the rules, not the dice mechanic (or derivitive dice mechanics thereof). That's all I'm trying to get through.

[mfb]

bah. never use one word where two will fit.

[Nerbert]

Actually, it makes a huge difference. Not a few pages ago I was being told that the "rules" are merely part of the setting, whereas the Dice Mechanic is the one thing that determines how the rest of the game is played.

[Raskolnikov]

People love strict definitions on message boards. They are all wrong however. If your point is not getting across because you are using words differently than your audience that is a fault in your arguement and you should clarify, not post a definition and then fight over it.

This "you" is generic.

[mfb]

i said "dice mechanics" because, honestly, that's what i meant: what dice are rolled, what they signify, how they impact each other, etcetera. basically, i'm disincluding rules that don't pertain to die rolling--for instance, whether or not an astral form can pass through a living being, what kind of guns are listed in the gear section, what races are presented as playable. those types of rules are the setting. the dice mechanics--how much damage you can take, how difficult it is to make a shot or cast a spell--help define the setting.

[Eldritch]

CoC has an Insantity rule. Tracking santity is a part of the setting.

Rolling the die to see if you've gone bonkers is the mechanic.

WoD has Rage, Will, and whatever else I'm forgetting - those are setting specific. Rolling the ten sided die against a target number and counting successes is a mechanic.

Shadowrun currently has what? 2 base mechanics; the main mechanic that determines most everything; number of d6 vs. target number and counting successes. And a different mechanic for resolving initiative.

If i'm reading all this correctly that is.....

[mfb]

like i said, i'm not just talking about base mechanics. i'm talking about all the mechanics. for instance, let's talk about my favorite exampe: damage mechanics. in SR, combat is fairly lethal even at high levels, because damage is difficult to resist unless you're prepared, and you only get 10 hit points. more over, damage impairs your ability to act; the more damage you take, the more the odds stack agaisnt you. in d20, combat is not lethal at high levels, because a) characters have tens or hundreds of hit points, and b) lower-level characters don't stand a chance of hitting higher-level characters. the different levels of lethality encourage different styles of play.

[sanctusmortis]

Right, here's my comparison of the systems:

Dice pool mechanics of the two
SR4: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 5+ on a D6 fixed, "hits" scored decides whether passed
nWoD: Attr + Skill +/- modifiers, TN 8+ on a D10 fixed, a single success is a pass but more successes yield better results

Character statistics
SR4: 10 attributes: 4 physical, 4 mental, 2 special (magic/edge), all limited to scores of 1-6 along with skills.
nWoD: 9 attributes: 3 physical, 3 mental, 3 social, all limited to scores of 1-5 along with skills. An extra attribute appears in each "subgame" (mage, werewolf, vampire) that is unique to said variant.

Rerolling and gaining an advantage
SR4: The Edge attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls and extra dice to actions to help them succeed.
nWoD: The Willpower attribute allows characters to spend points to gain rerolls to help them succeed.

Changes from last incarnation
SR4: Dice pools cleaned up a lot, attributes broken down further for ease of definition, attributes no longer sometimes derived from others, ruleset simplified, technology brought "up to speed", old books now totally redundant bar metaplot.
nWoD: Dice pools simplified, skills rejigged, metaplot reset, all games now standardised further for simplicity, direction and focus of games changed, ruleset simplified further.

I'd say they were pretty similar down to the way they've changed from previous iteration!

[Critias]

Silence, blasphemer! SR4 is the new jesus!

[Taki]

[Critias]

Thank you for that sparklingly intelligent and undeniably informative addition to the conversation at hand. My mind has been completely changed. SR4 is going to change my socks from unrocked to rocked, and, indeed, it will rock them off completely. Your ability to persuade is astounding. I'm a new man. God bless you!

[Taki]

Thanks.
He did !

[Grinder]

[Nerbert]

[mfb]

[Critias]

I sure am glad we "anti-SR4" hatemongers trademarked "making shit up," as Doc puts it. It's reassuring to know that no one on the other side is capable of such logical fallacies. Whew. Our schtick is secure!

[Ol' Scratch]

Yes, because 1) I'm absolutely, madly, unquestionably in love with what's been revealed about SR4 thus far :love:, and 2) in no way do I think Nerbert is being an idiot and have never, ever pointed out how he was being one previously for "making shit up." You nailed it again, Critias. <thumbs up>

[Nerbert]

Is Edge a Derived attribute? Is it derived from a character's mental and social resistsance attributes? Is it used solely to add three dice to a characters proactive actions or two to a character defensive actions? Is it refreshed based upon how successfully a player roleplays his character's Virtue and Vice? If it works differently then that in any way, then it doesn't work anything like Willpower.

And by the way, its not a logical fallacy.

P = We don't know how it works.
Q = We know that it doesn't work anything like Willpower.

Q is not dependant on P

For example. We don't know what the weather is like outside. But we know that Rain is not anything like Spaghetti and we know that Spaghetti stands no chance of falling from the sky.

Or for a more appropriate example. I don't know how a car works, but I know that it doesn't work anything like a bicycle. Its true that they can both be used, more or less, to get me around town, but they do it in completely different ways and they don't feel anything alike when I use them.

[Eldritch]

Okay, but your saying that you have no idea how edge works - so how can you say it doesn't work like will power?


In your bicycle/ car example - pretend you've never seen a car - or know anything about them.

How could you then compare the car to the bicycle? You have no idea what a 'car' is.

[Nerbert]

I'll answer your question by going through the questions I asked and answering them all for you, based on information we already know from the FAQs.

Is Edge a Derived attribute - No

Is it derived from a character's mental and social resistsance attributes? - Ha ha, what're those?

Is it used solely to add three dice to a characters proactive actions or two to a character defensive actions? - It may, but probably not and thats definitely not all it does.

Is it refreshed based upon how successfully a player roleplays his character's Virtue and Vice? - Ha ha, you're silly.

I have indeed seen the car from a distance, and I am exquisitely familiar with the functioning of the bicycle, and a bicycle don't got no four wheels.

[Eldritch]

[Nerbert]

Oh its logical, its just not very clearly stated. If there weren't already five posts about it I would edit it. So let it stand here, corrected.

"Second of all, the only thing that has been clearly defined about Edge is that it is no more comparable to Willpower then a Car is to a Bicycle. Sure they both get you around town, but they do it in completely different ways, and they don't feel anything alike when you use them."