Vampire: The M/R vs Shadowrun 4 Options

[Nerbert]

Cain, morality is a fundamental part of the NEW World of Darkness. You might have to just take my word for it, or you can look at all the information that already exists about Mage. There's no question. As sure as you know that SR4 will have Edge, I know that Mage will have some kind of Morality scale.

[frostPDP]

Completelllly ignoring the fact that att + skill +/- modifiers is the same system as V:TM/V:TR, eh Nerbert? Surpressed evidence is a great technique until it becomes a fallacy.

[Nerbert]

Attribute + Skill +/- Modifiers

First of all, Vampire divides skills and attributes into Mental, Social, and Physical. There's three attributes for each of those categories and eleven skills for each category.

Somehow, I don't see Shadowrun doing anythign even remotely similar to this.

[frostPDP]

...Lemme see if I can include the new skills properly.

Physical: Strength, body, reaction and whatever else quickness was broken into.
Mental: Perception, Knowledge, Willpower, Charisma.

8 skills versus 11 isn't a gigantic difference, just as SR3's 6 weren't much different from D&D's 6.

I'd not be surprised if Charisma got broken down into multiple stats for SR4 as well. It would almost make sense.

Regardless, you're still ducking the fact you have already acknowledged elsewhere - The formula for dice throwing is the same. I will not repeat it, it is annoying to type.

Of course, if you'd like to argue that SR4 won't be using "Attribute + Skill +/- Modifiers" (I said I wouldn't type it. I never said anything about cut and paste..) or that V:TM/V:TR don't use it...Go ahead, try.

[Nerbert]

Those aren't skills, those are attributes.

I'm not arguing that they don't use those systems. I'm arguing that just because they use the same dice system, doesn't mean the games will play, feel or operate in any kind of similar fashion.

And as for ducking points, you still havn't bothered to address the Threshold issue.

[Eldritch]

[frostPDP]

Sure I addressed it; earlier, when discussing how, at least in my V:TM game, successes were compared to create results. I discussed my char clocking a teammate who frenzied.

[Nerbert]

That was Masquerade again. Requiem has no thresholds.

[frostPDP]

Well, recalling the name of the forum for a moment, one can see how I could make such a greivous error. My deepest apologies.

[Nerbert]

Anyway. Its true that the two mechanics are the same, and its true that the mechanic has a lot to do with how a game works and feels.

However, I think that there are enough other things that go into the way an RPG is played that will make SR4 play and feel substantialy different from nWoD.

And anyway, if you're going to steal, steal from the best.

[Eldritch]

[Nerbert]

heh, White Wolf is the second best. And they stole from Shadowrun in the first place, so we all know where that 2nd place spot came from, right?

[Shadow]

See I think the thing you are missing is that we don't want a game that plays and feels like Nwod. We like our ORIGINAL game engine.

[Nerbert]

I think the thing that you're missing is that I'm saying that they won't feel the same at all.

[Shadow]

But the only thing we have to go on is that the two games are using the same engine. Your saying a game you have never played wont feel like another you have played.

We are saying since they use the same engine there is a good chance that it wont feel like Shadowrun anymore.

We have evidence to support our claim, please show me yours.

This isn't about being right or wrong, it is about our opinion of what this new game that Fanpro is making will do to Shadowrun. SR has used the same emgine since inceptioon, change it and you change Shadowrun.

[Adam]

[Nerbert]

Shadow, I've explained my evidence all through this thread, please read it and reply to it in specific.

And I'm definitely not arguing that Shadowrun won't be changed by new mechanics, it definitely will. But it won't be changed to Shadowrun: The Whingeing

And by the way, d20 went through this from 2nd edition to 3rd, World of Darkness is going through this right now. Who's to say some fundamental rebuilding isn't exactly what the game needs to be revitalized? Some of you might even like the new system better.

Of course, some of you definitely won't. Just, wait and play it and think about it before you decide.

[Cochise]

[frostPDP]

The difference between SR3 and 4 will be almost like playing Baldur's Gate and then playing Neverwinter Nights. Same company, same basic idea (D&D), completely different format.

If they used the Aurora engine to build BG again, it would still be a different game. Same plot, different feel.

BG 1 and 2, however, shared tons of feel because they were based on the same engine, despite revisions.

This is the difference between SR 3 and 4.

[Nerbert]

Now that I absolutely agree with.

[Eldritch]

[Cynic project]

[Shadow]

[Nerbert]

See, Neverwinter Nights is straight up 3rd edition D&D. Which is a huge difference between 2nd edition. Which, right there, ought to tell you a lot about what the similarities in dice mechanics mean. So just because you're throwing d20s around doesn't mean the two games will behave in any similar fashion.

[Eldritch]