Vampire: The M/R vs Shadowrun 4 Options

[Nerbert]

Wow, yeah, if they're not thinking of the DSF people, they must be only thinking of themselves. :S

[Critias]

Nerbert, maybe I'm just missing something here -- but what was your purpose in posting this thread?

Was it just to say "the two games aren't exactly identical, despite the massive similarities in their base mechanic?" Because, well, that's just you arguing with yourself. No one's ever say the two will play exactly alike (which is what you seem to be hung up on) -- people have made comparisons between the core mechanics (attribute, skill, modifiers, fixed TN), and that's really been about it.

Initially you posted that the 3% difference in base success probability showed how "very different" the two are. I mentioned that the average number of dice rolls changed that probability back towards one another, you ignored that and went on to mention morality tests and psychoses as the "difference," instead. Then loss of willpower, or something. Then...then I dunno. I really don't. I'm not sure what you're saying, really.

Please clarify.

[Nerbert]

I've stated my purpose for this thread earlier.

What I'm saying is that the core dice mechanic for performing actions might be similar. Similar, not exactly the same. And that these similarities will not make SR4 play, feel or operate in any way resembling nWoD, except in the most fleeting way.

Clearly no one is reading this thread because I keep repeating these things over and over, and no one actually responds to the evidence I bring up.

Which by the way is the following. a)The Threshold system is a fundemental element of the dice mechanic which the two systems do not share in any way. and b) There is more to a game then the core dice mechanic for performing actions.

People have replied with ways in which games that share dice mechanics are very different. People have replied that games with the same dice mechanic feel very different.

The 3.3% difference is a largely irrelevant issue which is being bruttally assaulted on despite its irrelevance.

If you don't know what the thread is for, don't post to it and let it die!

[Shadow]

[Nerbert]

[Shadow]

I think you are escaping what I am saying. If you change the way the game feels enough, it will not be Shadowrun.

There is always a bit of a change between editions. The big one for me was the way initiative was handled in 3ed. I thought it was a great new way to handle it. People still got to go fast, maintaining the feel, but you didn't end up with half the party waiting on two guys.

But were not talking about tweaks or revisions, were talking about entire new rules. I submit that it would be practically impossible for me (or anyone else) to come up with new rules for everything (which they have) and still have it feel anything remotely like Shadowrun.

Could you scrap D&D right here and now and make a game that felt even close to it? No of course not.

So don't tell me the new edition is going to be Shadowrun, printing the name on the book doesn't make it so (imho).

[Critias]

So, okay, right. You're just arguing with yourself, then, like I said. No one's ever said the two will play exactly alike. People have said "the core mechanics are almost identical," and even you have admitted as much. So, well, yeah. You're just...arguing.

And, if the 3% issue is so irrelevant, why was it the only real statement you made in your opening post? It was the only real argument you made, the only fact you presented as a massive difference between the two otherwise identical-in-theory core die mechanics -- and yet now you're brushing it off (and calling the counter arguments to you 3% difference "brutal assaults," or something) as a non-subject.

Nerbert, please listen: No one has said SR4 is going to play or feel just like WoD. People have said the core mechanic is remarkably similar to WoD. People have said the core mechanic is quite a bit more like WoD than previous SR incarnations. People have said they don't like that. That is all.

[Nerbert]

I'm not arguing with myself because people keep posting, telling me that I'm wrong!

I'm wrong no matter what I say! Its amazing!

Everyone was like "Shadowrun and nWoD will play exactly the same!" and I'm like "No, the games bear no resemblance to each other." and everyone says "HA HA HA, there's a resemblance MORON, they have the same dice system." so I say "But the dice system isn't that important." and they say "HA HA HA, games with the same dice system have the same "feel", MORON." and then someone else says "No, there are other games that have kind of the same systems and don't have the same feel at all." and everyone just ignores him. And now everyone is saying that I'm arguing that the new shadowrun mechanic won't change shadowrun and that I'm wrong about that when I've even said "The new dice mechanic will change Shadowrun." and then they're like "How can you say that it won't change it! Its making it into a whole new game!" and I said "Maybe, but it won't be like nWoD." and everyone is like "No Duh! We know that, MORON!"

And before someone bites my head off about putting "moron" into people's mouths, its implied by their tone.

Oh geez, Critias, I just read your post again. Are you completely ignoring the threshold differences on purpose or are you really not reading anything I say? The 3.3% thing was brought up because it was my opening post, I didn't know what people would have to say, and I wanted to start conversation. It is a difference, not a huge one maybe, but its there. The reason I said "brutal assault" is because its the weakest part of my argument, so people keep hammering, hammering, hammering on it because its not even being defended.

[Critias]

Got any links to all these posts where everyone's claiming the two games will be exactly alike? 'Cause I've been among the SR4 sub-forum's most active posters from the get-go, and I really don't remember any.

Yes, people are saying the die mechanics are as identical as they can be (given that SR isn't, at least, swapping over to a d10, to be totally open about it). Yes, people are saying that the die mechanic is very different from SR1-3. Yes, people are sometimes even poking fun by calling it "Shadow: The Running" (or similar), as a way of expressing their disappointment.

No, people are not saying the two games will be exactly alike. You're delusional.

[Fortune]

[Nerbert]

[Critias]

[Fortune]

In my experiences in discussing the SR4 mechanic with others away from Dumpshock, the first words out of most of their mouths are WoD-related.

[Critias]

Well, according to Nerbert, all those people you talk to are insane and incorrect, because you have to make a Humanity test in WoD, and you don't in SR. Oh, and you're stupid.

[Nerbert]

I love it. The two stupidest things I've said are the only things people talk about. The 3.3% thing and the "no resemblance" thing.

Its just... sad.

[Shadow]

[Nerbert]

ha ha ha. Too late. Its good that I know no fear.

[Critias]

[Nerbert]

What am I supposed to learn Critias? I said two stupid things, corrected myself and now all you're talking about is the two stupid things I've said.

[Critias]

Well, maybe you should stop saying stupid things, then, and, in fact, using stupid things as the cores of your arguments with others.

The one hard fact you tried to state at the start of this thread was that a 3% difference in base success probability showed how "very different" the two systems were. As soon as people called you on it, insetad of replying in any sort of meaningful manner you just said "that was stupid, pretend I never said that" (more or less).

You then stated an opinion as if it were fact -- "no resemblence" -- and as soon as people called you on that you, again, tried to backpedal and retract it.

I'm sure that, any minute now, you'll be changing your tune over in the Edge thread about your GMing style, and when to throw the TN modifiers and other rules right out the window (to save a precious, precious, NPC).

The simple fact is that when someone says something stupid around here, they get called on it. Not just by the list of people Shadow rattled off, but by everyone. It's the nature, not of DS, but of the internet. If you're dumb, you get called dumb. If you say a dumb thing, you're thought to be dumb. Get over it.

What the internet needs is more quadraplegics. They have to type everything with their nose, so they think real hard before they say anything.

[Nerbert]

What about threshold, thats hard fact, one you still have not addressed.

[Critias]

How much do you really know about threshold, in SR4, and how it affects gameplay?

And, on a related note, how often does a single success really accomplish all that you set out to do with a die roll, in WoD?

Add those two together and you get the idea that (1) we don't really know how big a deal thresholds are going to be in SR4, since we don't have the rulebook, do we, and (2) you normally need multiple successes (an informal threshold) in WoD, anyways, so you could easily argue that the need for beating a threshold is another similarity between the two games.

[Nerbert]

A single success is enough for any simple action.

[Shadow]

[Nerbert]

Shadow, you are just tenacious about dragging arguments all throughout every thread aren't you?