Create Spells, Variants on Create Food Options

[Panzergeist]

So I was looking through the spells, and when I saw the Create Food spell in MitS, it got me thinking. If you can create food out of nothing with a spell, you can create other stuff too. How about create RDX, or create Dikote, or create plutonium? Those are all single chemicals, much simpler than a full meal, which consists of many different chemicals unevenly mixed together. They may have more chemical energy, but that just means a higher drain code, and maybe multiple successes required. So as far as I can tell, there is nothing stopping me from creating a starting character from taking create plutonium, create uranium, create red mercury, create TNT, etc, and the nuclear weapons b/r skill, and a nuclear weapons shop, and using it to create my very own neutron bombs. Can someone please tell me if I'm missing something?

[Trax]

Yes, a death wish.

[Herald of Verjig...]

As usual, someone is trying to consider magic entirely backwards. If you'll notice, the OR to affect objects with most spells has absolutely drek-all to do with chemical complexity. It is entirely dependant or conceptual complexity, which is based on how much an object is varied from a natural occurance or instinctual concept. Food and water are instinctual concepts for humans, because they are obvious, and the consequences of going without them are obvious.

If you want to make a less instinctual create spell, look at the lowest OR that could be used to describe food and compare that with the TN on the create food spell. Apply the same ratio between OR and TN for any other materials you wish to create.

[Panzergeist]

You are missing the point. I accept that creating a brick of plutonium is harder than creating food. My point is that it is possible. And the OR of a homogenous block of material can't be too high, although since plutonium is a synthetic element, yo could rule that it would have a high OR. But once again, it's possible. Plus, it's not like there is any rush on creating a freaking atom bomb, so you could cast the spell over and over again if you wanted. Hence, the target number and drain are almost irrelevant.

It seems this could also be used to create valuable materials, earning easy money. Free spirits with the wealth power do essentially that. This would, however, negate the point of shadowrunning, if you could basically print money.

As far as I can tell, only arbitrary gamemaster fiat can stop me from eventually making an atom bomb with the help of magic. A GM could rule that a character can't start the game with such spells, and would have to design them himself. A GM could also rule that the nuclear weapons BR skill is not readilly learnable, although this seems doubtful, as pretty muc anything can be found on Shadowland.

[GunnerJ]

For a second, I thought this was an idea for a "Create Spell" spell.

[Panzergeist]

That would be awesome.

[Frater Inominatu...]

[SpasticTeapot]

Give 'em a TN equal to half the atomic number of the "highest" element in the product, with extremely popular and well-researched (read: Create Food) spells having lower-than-normal TNs. Carbon would have a TN of 3, Uranium would have a TN of 119. Drain would be force(deadly plus five), so you'd likely just end up dead regardless.

[Panzergeist]

That would certainly make it hard, although a really determined maged would eventually succeed. Looking at the periodic table, the heaviest essential element in food is Iodine, atomic number 53.

[Ancient History]

First off, magic oesn't create something out of nothing. Different variants of the spell might handle it different ways, but essentially the material is being made out of energy. In this case, magical energy.

Create Food is more or less a manipulation version of a sustenance spell. There's no evidence that the "food" is anything we'd normally recognize as such (i.e. the internal
structure need not correspond to the external appearence or function). If the spell created a piece of fruit, you couldn't take the seeds from it and get the genetic information out of them, because it's not actually a piece of fruit. It's a construct containing nutritious materials in an edible package...possibly nothing more than a "charge" of sustaining energy.

While theoretically possible to design spells to create different substances, the possibility that those substances are valid for all purposes is slim. More advanced materials, especially magical, synthetic or radioactive, would be more difficult to design and create.

I'm not saying that it's /not/ possible to design a Create Iron spell, or anything like that. But I don't think SR spell design has reached the necessary level of advancement.

[Panzergeist]

So if I read you correctly, what you're saying is I would instead make a "create fissile material" or "create fusible material" spell which would create a material that can substitute for any fissile/fusible element in nuclear reactions, but not share the chemical properties of that element? That actually sounds better.

[Ancient History]

Possibly. It would depend on whether or not the inherent property of the material was more or less complex than the material itself. It also depends on whether anything was actually "created."

In the case of a Create Water spell, did the spell convert magical energy to water, or use magical energy to gather water molecules together? Is it actually water, or is it something that looks and acts like water, but is actually just magical energy in a temporary liquid form that acts like water?

The question becomes, is it easier to create a single element (Create Water) or is it easier to create something that /acts/ like that element?

[Panzergeist]

Good point. Gathering up elements instead of creating them would make a big difference, and make it impossible to make plutonium and other synthetic elements. Of course, that still leaves open the possibility of using magic to make exotic explosives like RDX.

Anyway, it's just a thought experiment. I've done some pretty crazy things, but I have to draw the line here even if Grendel (my current GM) doesn't smack me upside the head for suggesting something so crazy. I using a cropdusting drone to spray a merc camp with cyanide gas, or using RDX to level a small skyscraper, is about as high as I can go on the destruction scale.

[Frater Inominatu...]

[JaronK]

The issue here I think is that there's really nothing stopping you from "create gold" which is natural. This is why I've removed "create" spells entirely from my games, saying that magic cannot permanently create anything. You can do a sustained spell like that, or you can have an instant spell that temporarily creates something (like toxic wave) but after a while this fades.

JaronK

[Panzergeist]

That's my take. I actually thought create food was just a non-canon spell someone had posted on the internet until I ran across it today. Although create RDX would be nice.

[Crimson Jack]

[Frater Inominatu...]

[Panzergeist]

Because Shadowrun magic is extremely limited in function. That's my broad, cop-out answer.

[Frater Inominatu...]

Fair enough, but, theoretically speaking...

Why would the heal spell be permanent and create "X" not?

[Ancient History]

[Panzergeist]

The create spell spell idea has gotten me thinking though. Maybe you could use divination to help design spells? Or a metamagic variant with divination as a prerequisite?

[Johnnycache]

create food is lame and out of flavor. I hate that spell. It's like, why didn't they just include "Magic circle against evil"

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Panzergeist]

Good and evil are vague concepts anyway. How about magic circle against annoying, or magic circle against assholes? Maybe a magic circle against dumbasses or jinxes, to protect you from the total ****up on your team.