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> "Epic" edges and flaws?, Cuz Epic just sounds big!
frostPDP
post Jun 9 2005, 06:15 PM
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One of the biggest complaints I've recieved from players is "The game is great, but I'd love to be able to become a big player." In legend, a single man would stand and defeat a (non-Great, I'd guess) Dragon - And Dragons certainly were real in the SR world.

So the idea came up while discussing things that "epic" edges could be bought after a certain amount of Karma had been accumulated.

Unlike other skills, I'd think something like this can only be bought with Karma Pool, not GK. This puts non-humans at a disadvantage, however, so its an idea that should be cautioned against without much thought. They should also be quest-only, or storyline-only, to limit the "If a PC can have it, NPC can have it" thing. Perhaps you had special guns made for you and you get a specialization in that particular gun as your Epic edge, so that skill ranks cost half a normal spec.

What I'd like to know are a few things.

1: Does the idea make any sense? If so, at what GK limit do you obtain the ability to get these and which method/combination is best to learn them? At what expense?

2: What sort of edges (and flaws. Flaws count too) make sense. An epic flaw might be "Recognized on sight in Tir Tangiere, thus going there is suicide," while an epic edge might be a variant of "Friends in high places" - "A Friend in Lofwyr." One may allow a damage-level reduction, equivalent to an automatic success on a die roll without actually spending one. (two of these edges essentially downstaging damage by one level)

Hope to get some good ideas.
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Kagetenshi
post Jun 9 2005, 06:35 PM
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A Rigger or PAC-equipped streetsam can probably take down an ordinary Dragon if they've got the element of surprise.

And then there's the Troll physad with polearm.

~J
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nezumi
post Jun 9 2005, 06:55 PM
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Do you have any examples? I suppose I could imagine say buying extra essence (or lowering essence costs across the board) or perhaps making drain magically lower. Things like that?

I'd be very wary of stuff like that. Shadowrun is not meant to be epic, or at least not to have epic characters. In most cyberpunk stories, the characters may achieve epic things, but it's by being in the right place at the right time, not because they're somehow superhuman. With the importance of skills and the like, I can see a lot of space for expansion without epic level edges, however I could see people getting to 300 karma and getting a bit bored with things after a point.
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Gyro the Greek S...
post Jun 9 2005, 06:56 PM
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Hm, interesting concept...

How about possible combinations? Just as a possible example, you could take a World Changing Information merit, but also have to take the Hunted Former Renraku Exec flaw.
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frostPDP
post Jun 9 2005, 10:29 PM
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Something like that, Gyro.

An example might be something like "Bio-Incorporation" which allows your body to better adjust to certain types of cyberware you already have. Cyberarms might not apply, but maybe headware radio won't do so much to displace the spirit anymore...(which makes damn sense if you ask me.)

Another one I thought up is Epic Reflexes, which adds 1d6 to your initative (Again, only MBW allows you to transcend 4d6). So your Wired 3 sammy takes this and can get rid of Wired 3. Which means 2 less points of essence taken up, which is good because, at least in my view, removing cyberware will allow the astral self to slowly realign itself with the physical.

For mundanes, Epic Awakening would require some level of storyline issues. That low-cybered character might get the shock of his life when the secluded Mr. Miyagi unlocks his soul's magical power and gives him a magic rating of 1. Then? Initiation time!

Another thought is a continutation of an older one - That at some point, you can get an edge which allows you to sacrifice a die for a target number reduction. This would probably be an easier-to-obtain one and could be taken multiple times. Don't like having to sweat the chance of your 10 die not hitting TN 8? Take that edge twice and your 8 dice have to hit a 6 - Suddenly, a far more profitable engagement.

Perhaps you have the solid backing of a megacorp. You do so much work for Ares - and by work I mean saving the company - and you use the huge payoff (After all, you had them at virtual gunpoint: Pay up or you don't stop the threat...) to buy your way into it as a shareholder.

Of course, the limit upon these is that they are far more costly than normal edges and flaws. Most of these have some ultra-rare situation which is tagged onto them (I.E. being able to actually defeat afforementioned threat to Ares.) and may have a drawback (I.E. Ares was being threatened by Saader-Krupp. Lofwyr now has a personal vendetta against you - though not an Art Dankwalter type.) but they allow for interesting RP possibilities, as well as making SR more animeish than cyberpunkish. Which some people like, some don't - I personally don't mind a little crossing, so long as it makes sense and doesn't get out of hand.

A probable restriction is your char must have 100 Karma to take one of them, and they should probably cost minimum of 10, sometimes more (maybe level 1 takes 10, 2 takes 15.) and perhaps consume a Karma Pool point.

After all, you've already injected people like Harlequin and Dragons like Ghostwalker into this game...What's to say you can't rival them, or at least be able to get away without being gobbled up?
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Shadow
post Jun 9 2005, 11:42 PM
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Uncanny Aim (cost unkown)

The character with this edge has become so proficient with his chose fire ar he rarely if ever missses.

Rule:

-2 to all TN's involving a specific weapon. Character must have had specific weapon for at least 6 months. If the weapon is destroyed or lost so is the edge.
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scoundrel
post Jun 10 2005, 01:33 AM
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Epic Immortality

You possess the power to completely halt the aging process.

Epic Invulnerability

You're completely impervious to damage of all types.

Epic Strength

You can decimate entire armies using only your left pinky.

Epic Intelligence

You make Dunkelzahn look like Bobby Sue Beaver from Jacksonville, Florida.

Epic Sexiness

Your presence alone induces simultaneous multiple orgasms in all members of the opposite sex within a one mile radius.

Epic God Mode

All of the above.
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frostPDP
post Jun 10 2005, 01:39 AM
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Now now, its fun to turn God Mode on every once in a while. Walk up to Aden, poke him, possibly soil him in some way, then dance as he claws you for 60DN damage and you gettiing up...

But seriously, I understand the feeling. I just figure you can use special stuff to make things interesting at higher levels, when epic stuff can reasonably be done. (100+ karma)
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SpasticTeapot
post Jun 10 2005, 02:02 AM
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I'm going to save the "Epic" advantages for the players that happen to enjoy playing "average" characters with relatively low stats, and roleplay 'em well. It's also a lot of fun to have the ability show itself randomly; for example, the puny human who had surgery to make him look like a catguy (A well roleplayed catguy, no less) punching out a troll.
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toturi
post Jun 10 2005, 02:06 AM
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Epic Epicity

You are truely Epic. That's all. :D
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frostPDP
post Jun 10 2005, 02:13 AM
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LOL Cat-man!

The idea is just that - A little idea which could allow for a slightly more powerful game. At 300 Karma, you have to admit having relative impotence against military forces is a little dull. Pulling off the big runs is fun, but you'd never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever choose to go against a -real- threat like a Great Dragon, group or none. Your whole group would be eaten, and probably with good reason - But there should be a chance.

This option would more be for GM's seeking to involve carry-over threats from the Fourth World. Perhaps they only learn X Epic skill by eating it and barely surviving it when a horror deals it.

After all, one idea for an epic power would be magic which allows someone/a party to step onto the Astral and go across the whole world, appearing in the first place. I believe it was mentioned elsewhere that this was similar to an Earthdawn power.

Perhaps hours and hours of practice and use of a specific weapon gets you mastery of it, as afforementioned. If the specific gun is destroyed, it may take months of practice to re-assign that epic power to the new one. If you can do it at all. (Maybe no GK cost, but a KP cost of one instead?)

Or perhaps you're the kind of GM who absolutely doesn't want this. Totally acceptable. That's why this is just an idea with many possible implications.
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Eyeless Blond
post Jun 10 2005, 02:23 AM
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You know, you could always just allow existing edges to be taken multiple times, for progressive costs, with the effects stacking. Specifically I'm thinking about the Aptitude, Toughness, Perceptive, etc. edges. All you'd need is a way to purchase Edges post-chargen. For example I'd allow some sort of stacking method with the new edge costing 10 Karma per point, and "progressive" edges costing the original number of Edge points plus 2 for each additional time the edge is taken. For instance Aptitude x2 would cost 6 Edge points, and thus 60 Karma.

Maybe add in a couple of other "Epic" level progressive edges, like Spell Mastery, a 3 point Edge which reduces he TN for learning spells of a particular element, like Illusion spells. Mabe something like Drain Adaptation, which lowers the Power of all Drain suffered by the character by 1.

All you'd need then is insanely high levels of Karma, which would probably already be true for "Epic" level games. :)
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frostPDP
post Jun 10 2005, 02:27 AM
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You could, but epic Technical School Knowledge doesn't quite work.

Still, another thing is that some of these edges wouldn't necessarily have a chargen equivalent. You could almost argue Ambidexterity 8 is epic, as well as aptitudes. But I like the idea of "If you can do it, so can they" being a guideline for non-epic edges....

"Wait, why was his TN so low?"
"Cuz he has the aptititude for that handgun."
"How?? Only I have that!"
"HAH! Its in basic chargen, for all you know half of Lone Star has it. That's 12S for the ruger... Oh, and he gets another shot. With combat pool."

Now, epic Friends in Highest Places wouldn't have too many people with it.
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DocMortand
post Jun 10 2005, 02:40 AM
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Man, I want epic sexiness so BAD....
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toturi
post Jun 10 2005, 02:43 AM
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Hey... MacGuyver must have had Epic Tech School and College Education.
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hyzmarca
post Jun 10 2005, 04:06 AM
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QUOTE (toturi)
Hey... MacGuyver must have had Epic Tech School and College Education.

MacGuyver is a multi-initate adept with every Improved B/R skill under the sun, except for firearms, all geased to cannot ever shoot anyone with a firearm, epic education and a pacifist flaw.

Oddly, Macguyver's pacifist flaw doesn't prevent him from blowing peope up, crushing people under demolished buildings, electrocuting people and dumping them into vats of oil, droping people off mountains, throwing people off clifs, engulphing people in massive fireballs, and everything else that somehow failed to kill Murdock.


Epic edges and flaws are an interesting idea, along with epic metamagics. However, epic really isn't the right word. It doesn't fit as well into Shadowrun. It sounds too heroic. Perhaps extradorinary is a beter term. I assume these are things that are going to go given out for extradorinary roleplaying in extradoriny situations rather than something that can be taken as a matter of course during character advancement.


I don't see how A Friend in Lowfyr would be of any use, unless Lowyfer just didn't chew well.

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frostPDP
post Jun 10 2005, 04:12 AM
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Clever, Hyz. :grinbig:

But yeah, Epic is just the term I'm using because these notions of super-extraordinary powers come to mind first in D&D's Epic Feats info. I think they even include climbing a ceiling...Without gear...Just walking up it Naruto-Style. Could be wrong.

That ain't what an Epic Edge in the SR sense would be. At least, not without some level of magic involved (Which, with said edges, is possible for anyone....)

But that's why the idea is interesting - It makes 100 Karma not seem like 50. And so on - More options not available to starting chars than "Look, I have a 12 in a skill! I still can't hit TN 10 consistantly, though."
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nick012000
post Jun 10 2005, 06:03 AM
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For the record, it is entirely possible to kill a Great Dragon under the current rules. You just need a high velocity machine gun, 7 points of recoil comp, a pintle mount, and APDS ammo.

Open up with the machine gun, firing an 18 round autofire burst at it. TN to dodge is 10, and (after the dragon's 12 Armor is halved) a damage code of 19D. Dragon falls unconscious. You then unload two or three more bursts into its prone body to make sure it's dead (to go through all 25 boxes of physical overdamage).

Also, I have made a character that will probably kill a (non-Great) Asian Dragon in one-on-one melee combat. He's a Giant street sam with a dikoted Combat Axe.
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frostPDP
post Jun 10 2005, 06:08 AM
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Err...I somehow predict that a Great Dragon would use something other than human stats.

The damage codes are human-relevent. I wouldn't be surprised if great dragons were considered ships, or at the very least vehicles.

And how many dice do GD's get for body, again? What kind of Karma Pool would a 5000 year old beast have?
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BookWyrm
post Jun 10 2005, 06:17 AM
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Epic Reputation; You've become so well known (either famous or infamously) that law-enforcement just surrenders when they encounter you.
"Hey, Bob, isn't that....?"
"...Holy Frag, Mike...it *is*!"
{both drop their guns} "OK, we give up."
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frostPDP
post Jun 10 2005, 06:21 AM
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Yeah, but that could be a 50-50 with

"Hey mike, isn't that.."
"Holy frag, it is! Call the Guard!!!!"
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nick012000
post Jun 10 2005, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE (frostPDP)
Err...I somehow predict that a Great Dragon would use something other than human stats.

The damage codes are human-relevent. I wouldn't be surprised if great dragons were considered ships, or at the very least vehicles.

And how many dice do GD's get for body, again? What kind of Karma Pool would a 5000 year old beast have?

No, they're considered critters, and use the same statline humans do. Just take a look at the Dragons and Spirits chapter of SR3.

The biggest GD's have 25 Body and 12 points of Hardened Armor (halved by APDS).

And their Karma Pool is equal to double whatever the PCs are. ;)
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Edward
post Jun 10 2005, 07:25 AM
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The problem is cost, buying out of a flaw costs 10 karma per point value, your epic edges would have to cost more than that, so there probably going to start at 100 karma, who ever has 100 karma available to spend.

Most of the things you want to do can already be done.

There are rules for signature weapons, a kind of over specialisation not just in a type of gun but in your guns,

I have killed a lesser form dragon with a shotgun, it was playing with the brick shit house samy (much of its CP gone) and I shot it, point blank rang, SL2 EXEX slug, 10 dice target 2 7 successes, dead dragon, of cause the samy was on a serious wound buy then but it worked out good.

Physically going astral I think would work better as a metamagic, obviously it would want some significant prerequisites, possibly including initiate grade 7+

Edward
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nezumi
post Jun 10 2005, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (scoundrel)
Epic God Mode

All of the above.

AKA You're the GM
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scoundrel
post Jun 11 2005, 01:27 AM
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The GM is the one who can switch off your God Mode, unplug the controller, and make a random ghoul eat your face off.
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