So, what is Cyberpunk, anyway?, A followup to recent theme discussions.. Options

[Lady Anaka]

A good start into the genre is through Philip K. Dick, arguably the most influential author in the genre, at least among other authors. His work is the basis for tons of cyberpunk films, including Paycheck, Blade Runner, Minority Report, and others. He's also very accessible, as most of what he wrote were short stories. There's whole collections of them on iTunes, if you find those useful. There's also various collections on Amazon.com. Neuromancer is available on CD, possibly tape as well there, and other works.

If you'd like a seminal list and historic examination of the genre, take a look at the introduction Bruce Baugh wrote for Ex Machina. It really covers the groundwork and support for the cyberpunk genre.

[Cynic project]

Well, I would have to say that best cyberpunk novel, would be Snow Crash.

Bow here is the biggest problem with a cyperpunk(THE rpg KIND), it focuses way to much on CYBER and not enough on punk.

The best cyberpunk stories do not need to have cyberware.

[mfb]

indeed. i tend to think of Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle as being cyberpunk, even though they really aren't. they deal with the way technology changes mankind, which is essentially what cyberpunk is about.

[Penta]

AH:

I don't have Strength 2 arms!

Well, OK, maybe I do, but that's not relevant.:-)

<reads> No tapes?

Gahhhhh. I don't want to have to order from RFB&D!

[Raskolnikov]

Just for reference, cyber did not mean metal augmentations when cyberpunk was coined. Cyber dealt with any sort of computer science and information technology.

[Demonseed Elite]

[Penta]

See, DSE is entering into the real discussion!:)

That's the thing that I think we need to decide and decide now.

My view is that we need to focus on relevance. Why?

Because SR competes now with everything from the new XBox to PC gaming to the new Harry Potter book to the the 500-channel TV aided by TiVo to all the hordes of games that crowd the RPG market.

And FanPro has been losing, it seems. (Anybody have the latest stats from Game Trade Monthly?)

Part of that is the leg up WotC and WW have, and will always have, peiod. FanPro will always have to fight for the scraps.

But part of it, I think, is that whilst D&D and WoD never really need to fiddle with settings for the player to dive in (D&D exists in the World of Make-Believe we all grew up with; WoD exists here, but with creepy supernatural things), SR exists...When?

In the 1980s + X years?

In a future measured from now, in which case we probably need to reassess whether SR should ever be called cyberpunk, or just something different that need not pay attention to anything that was or might be cyberpunk?

Or...what is it?

Playing with the Gonzo of RPGs can be fun...but Gonzo wouldn't survive as an RPG very long. :D

[Gyro the Greek S...]

[Panzergeist]

Characteristics of cyberpunk:

1. The dehumanizing effect of technology.
2. The obsolescence of traditional nation-states.
3. The increasing importance of information technology.
4. Film noir style atmosphere, with the emphasis on how powerless characters are to do more than just keep themselves safe.
5. A near-future culture of amorality.

I think pretty much all cyberpunk staples fall into one of those categories.

[mfb]

film noir is often present, but i don't see it as being a staple. in Diamond Age, for instance, a number of characters are pretty badass in a non-noir sort of way. Hiro, Raven, and the mafia don all seem to have Immunity to Normal Death. YT isn't really badass per se, but she's certainly prepared for almost any eventuality. [edit: on reflection, i guess Diamond Age is really more the exception that makes the rule.]

not to derail the thread, but did anybody catch any traces of Hiro in Diamond Age? YT's the only character i was able to find.

[audun]

[Supercilious]

I feel like a literary elitist, all these books I read apparently "define cyberpunk" but I read them over the years because my father said they were good.

Things is workin' out for me. Information becoming more important never really struck me as Cyberpunk, that always seemed like more of a "technofuture' type thing. Cyberpunk would seem to make information less important, because does it really take that much real knowledge to shoot someone comin' up to your part of the slum?

[Demonseed Elite]

[Penta]

Right. Similarly, at least in popular feeling, it's not "Corporations taking over the world", is it? It seems more to be "All the jobs are fleeing to India!" "The immigrants are invading!"

[Demonseed Elite]

The 80s were the days of the Japanese boom and the hostile takeovers. The media was loud with the idea of Japanese keiretsus (who were protected from outside takeover through their links to each other) taking over American companies and tearing them apart, leaving the laid off without jobs for no real reason other than it was more profitable to dismantle the taken over corp. It was also the time of vast corporate deregulation and the critics' fears of it.

Nowadays, we aren't afraid of the "evil Japanese" taking over our businesses and divesting us of our jobs, we're afraid of our own greedy corporate CEOs outsourcing everything, if not directly ripping off the corporation themselves (Enron, Tyco, WorldCom). 'Course, I think this stuff fits well with Shadowrun. Play down the Japanacorps angle a bit (which has already happened) and play up the vast class-based gulf between the haves (the corp execs) and the have-nots (the wageslaves and SINless).

[Penta]

That could work really well, but would need to be done verrry carefully to keep from becoming an excuse for RL politics and similar, which could ruin it.

[Wounded Ronin]

I haven't read much cyberpunk, so for me SR was always about punks, Japanacorps, and the 1980s. And it's supposed to look like Blade Runner. Yeah.

[Req]

On the list of essential cyberpunk, John Shirley should be listed prominently. The A Song Called Youth series (Eclipse, Eclipse Penumbra, Eclipse Corona) are some of my favorites. Shirley steers fairly clear of the cyber part of the equation, but gets the punk part down proper.

'Course, this is cyberpunk without the corporate end; nation-states are still pretty mcuh alive and well. The real "evil organization" here is closer to a policlub. But it's a great read.

[Ancient History]

If Harlen Ellison and Phillip K. Dick were the kindly antecedents of Cyberpunk, John Shirley was their beloved mutant grandchild that really got the ball rolling. You literally wouldn't see mirrorshades if it wasn't for City Come A Walkin, and his remarkable short-story Freezone, which is actually an excerpt from his Eclipse trilogy, more than stands on its own with any other cyberpunk short story you could name. Freezone is in both of the antholgies I mentioned earlier, as I recall.

[Req]

Damn straight. Freezone, in the Mirrorshades anthology, was what turned me on to Shirley in the first place, and I only got Mirrorshades because Bruce Sterling edited it, and I only found Sterling because of Neuromancer leading to The Difference Engine, way back in the day...so I suppose I came about the whole thing a little bit backwards.

In other news: Walter John Williams is amazingly hit-and-miss, but Hardwired is another vital proto-cyberpunk story. Lots of drugs. Good evil corporate entities. Possibly the filthiest melee weapon ever. I wouldn't be surprised if that book alone is where SR Riggers come from, and I'm sure it's where T-birds originated... :)

[Grimtooth]

ok you got me what's on the x-rated version of robocop?????

[Req]

[Grimtooth]

W00t!!

i thought maybe it was a more graphic "death" scene for peter weller.

[Eldritch]

*Jumps in, case of 15-40 in hand*

Eh? X-Rated? Cyborg on cyborg??? You need the oil!!

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]