Force 1 sustaining focus, Cuz improved 3 is cheaaap Options

[frostPDP]

This has probably been heavily discussed already, but my search-fu sucks.

Looking at the rules it makes perfect sense to just stick Improved Reflexes 3, at force 1, into a force 1 sustaining focus.

+3d6 initiative at the cost of 2 Karma and a single drain test = REALLY sweet, really cheap.

My solution for this is pretty basic. The force of the sustaining focus + force of the spell = How many initiative passes its active for.

That way you get 2 full passes of improved 3 before re-cast. Its not terribly restrictive in-combat, but it means you can't pre-cast it and walk around all day armed to the teeth.

This may or may not apply only to Improved 2/3, but I want to know a few things about this idea.

1: Do I have the rules interpretation right, or am I missing something?
2: If so, does this sound like a good way to restrict the use of sustaining foci?
3: Anchoring foci might (perhaps, not sure) remove this restriction, but it would cost more to obtain/make and more to bond, correct?

[mfb]

1: nope, that's correct.
2: bleagh, that's pretty restrictive.
3: i am too lazy to look this answer up.

force 1 foci are good for cheap tricks like that, but cheap tricks like that are good targets for manabolt/astral attacks/other things which destroy a focus. i'm not saying you should do it all the time, but there's no reason an enemy mage wouldn't take a cheap shot like that, especially if s/he's got the advantage of surprise.

[toturi]

1) Interpreted correctly. Or as correctly as commonly held.

2) Very restrictive. Setting a dangerous precedent however.

3) Anchoring foci does not Sustain. So I do not quite get what you wish to accomplish.

[hyzmarca]

The enemy mage doesn't even have to be going for the focus. Remember, if you eat an area combat spell then your focus eats the same spell. Nothing like losing your reflex bonus while you and your entire team try desperatly to stage down damage from a deadly manaball.

[toturi]

[GunnerJ]

The problem with your solution is that it's an anomoly. Why does it work just this way for just this spell? If someone got a F1 Invisibility spell sustained by a F1 focus, would it only work for 2 combat turns before the target bacomes visible again?

Or is this by the nature of the spell? Should Increased Reflex spells now only work for (Force) combat turns? You've effectively made it a permanent spell (which can have such time limits on their effects; see the Makeover spell). What about other health spells?

Better to just houserule those spells into one Increase Relexes spell where the Force is relevent.

[SpasticTeapot]

I'm just going to Houserule the whole thing into one big spell, "Improve Reflexes", with 1 die of initiative gained per 2 (force levels of the spell cast-2) . Drain would be as per IR1, but casting IR3 would require a force-8 focus and the drain would be freakishly nasty anyway..

[frostPDP]

Well that certainly provides a good alternative, Spastic.

That way you A: Need a force 8 focus.

B: 8 magic rating to cast the spell without physical drain.
C: A good roll to resist the drain.

The only issue is: What happens for force 1 and 2? Does the spell just not work, or does it just provide a reaction bonus or something?

And the same goes for force 9, 10 and so on? Do you get extra dice, a la MBW, or do you just get extra reaction?

Other then that, I think you're on the right track.

[Glyph]

Like I've said before, it's not really that game-breaking. Unlike wired reflexes, you don't get the Reaction increase, so it doesn't help against surprise tests, and the highest version of it gives you something that is slightly less, on average, than you get from wired reflexes: 2. Any decent speed sammie will be way faster than that.

It costs a Force: 1 sustaining focus and 2 spell points (1 for the force: 1 spell and 1 to bond the focus). Additional spell points are 25,000 per point, so this combo actually costs the mage 65,000 Nuyen, or the equivalent, for an initiative boost with numerous disadvantages. Active foci are easy to attack astrally and can also be messed up by wards (not to mention alerting the creater of that ward). Note though, that area affect combat spells will only affect the focus if it is in LOS of the enemy spellcaster - a ring or brooch might be affected, but an amulet worn under a shirt might not be. They are still troublesome and prone to being damaged. And if you ever get captured, say bye-bye to it. And if they don't re-bond it, they can keep it to have a permanent way of finding you again. Yay.

I personally don't advocate going out of your way to screw over a mage with this combination. If they keep the focus active all of the time, they have to worry about astral attention, wards, and astral attacks. If they only use it right before the run, they still have to cast a high-Drain spell, and still have to deal with wards (and astral attacks, if the defenders have any concealment or other opportunities for surprise). All of this trouble and expense, for a comparatively weak initiative boost, so that they are still behind most of the sammies and adepts, but can still at least go more than once a round.

[frostPDP]

Yeah, but one could also quickly tack on an Improved Reaction: 6 spell and, with an intellegence of 6 have 4 foci left to bond if need be.

So for 14 Karma (6 + 6 for the spell and focus, then 1 + 1 for the IR3 and focus), a relatively minimal amount of gaming (depending on run difficulty, my groups net from 4 to 8 a run) one can match, roughly, a Street Sam's wired 3 or an Adept's investature of 5/6ths of his power points.

Needless to say, thats a slight bit unbalanced (Even if the Adept can initiate for another point at 9 Karma (Group + ordeal), and even if the Sam trades 14 Karma at 1:10,000 for a measly 140,000 :nuyen: .) because of the following issue.

Mages don't worry about Power Point limitations or Essence. Using 30 build points as the max for money, a gunbunny can buy ONE set of Wired Reflexes 3 alphaware, costing 4 essence. That's it. An Adept can dump 5 points into Improved 3, but that's that except maybe for, I dunno, whatever he might get for 1 point. Mages just dump 1/3rd of their focus ability, unless they have low intellegence.

As for the numbers, I'll use reaction 6 as an example and compare and Adept/Sam with level 3 improved/wired and a mage with improved reflexes 3 only. The average roll is a 3 or 4.

- So an average adept roll is from from 12-16. Same with a sam. Same with a mage.
- Automatically, their reaction is 6, so they are now from 18-22.
- The additional 6 from wired/improved raises the adept and sam to 24-28

Now for the minimum-maximum ranges.

- No reaction boost is from 4-24
- The reaction of 6 gives you 10-30
- The additional from wired/improved is 16-36.

I'm sure we all know this. So that kind of situation is what makes the Mage getting 10-30 for minimal cost so difficult when adepts and sams have to invest most of their power for 16-36. Then, heaven help you if you skimped on intellegence or quickness.

I think Spastic's system is the best, but it makes me wonder what 1-2 force points, as well as 9+ do? Do they add reaction? Is it something like an odd table:

1: +1 reaction
2: +2 reaction
3: 1d6 + 2 reaction
4: 1d6 + 3 reaction
5: 2d6 + 3 reaction
6: 2d6 + 4 reaction
7: 3d6 + 4 reaction
8: 3d6 + 5 reaction
9: 3d6 + 6 reaction
10: 3d6 + 7 reaction?

Though it reminds me of the slightly odd looking Boosted Reflexes table, these numbers almost sound sensible. What do you guys think about this?

[Vaevictis]

[Glyph]

The main drawback to the Increase Reaction spell is that to get the full potential +6 to reaction, you need to roll 12 6's (assuming a base Reaction of 6) - and if your base Reaction is lower, then you probably won't be competing with the sammies and adepts even if you get the full +6.

Personally, I wouldn't want to use that combo - mages don't have quite the same need for speed that sammies and gun adepts do, and I would rather stick with the low-Force focus that I can use Masking on when I initiate. For 6 Karma, I would also rather bond a specific spell focus, for some extra dice for my favorite Combat spell.

[weblife]

This spell got beaten with the nerf stick in our group.

Now the three spells are One, with 2 successes needed pr. bonus die, with a maximum no. of successes equal to Force.

Drain was reduced to M, and TN to 10-Essence.

This basically meant, that the mages stopped being fast, noone can afford a F6 Sustaining focus just now, yet the Adept and Sam are now super fast. As is most of our enemies.

Nerfing this spell, IMO, just weakens mages and puts more power on Adepts and Sams.

Drain from the +3 spell is Deadly, which means that unless you have 8 WIL or a Trauma Dampener, then you will take a Light Stun casting it. If you place it in a F1 sustaining foci, its still more fragile than a Sams wires or an Adepts improved reflexes.

Even Deckers and Riggers have access to more reaction dice that can't be taken away from them.

Instead of focusing on the spell, look instead on the balance where the mage is always going last in the round, and always having one action less, on average, than everyone else.

IMO this spell should remain just as it is.

[tisoz]

What is stopping the Street Sam and/or adept from using the rules and buying their own Force 1 Sustaining focus containing the +3 Increase Reflexes Spell? Take a magician as a friend for life if you are worried about too much about it, and buy it from them. You could even pay them for the karma to bond the thing.

It would be cheaper to buy the contact, the two sustaining foci, and pay for the karma than a set os Wired Reflexes 3 costs. And then you could quit complaining that the magician has an advantage.

[frostPDP]

So long as you don't have to deactivate it for any reason whatsoever.........Thumbs downed to that.

Considering the drain for the spell, most mages would be unwilling to suffer the risk of casting and rolling poorly if it isn't for themselves.

[weblife]

Not to mention that its obligatory to cross Barriers every single run we do. Can't reliably turn on and turn off the bloody focus all the time.

The spell solution to reflexes is much weaker than the other choices. And yes, much cheaper. But not unbalancing. Again thats just MO.

[Eyeless Blond]

Also that it's not compatible with, well anything else except the increase Reaction spell. It's a Mana spell so you can't use it if you have Reaction/Init-boosting cyberware; it specifically states it's not compatible with anything that increases your initiative dice; it has a high Drain and a low Force, so it's easily dispelled and the focus is easily attacked.

I would, however, make the simplifying assumption that attended objects don't take damage from area effect physical spells unless the subject botches his resistance roll. It's a bit of a D&D-ism, I know, and not really supported by the rules IIRC but otherwise I'd be forced to rule that the Sammy's gun, the adept's weapon focus, the decker's deck, etc etc all have a chance of being affected as well. Everyone would have to make a save for their armor, their clothes, their tools... ugh, no thanks.

Also keep in mind that manabolt et al. only affect living things (that's the definition of a mana spell), and thus not foci. (Edit: nevermind; just looked up the rules and this is false *facepalm*) Getting a spirit to attack and destroy it is a very good idea though, and a strategy that any particularly vindictive enemy mage would be sure to employ.

[weblife]

Which is why its often clever to Mask your Foci. - And why its nice that the focus is only F1, so its nice and easy to mask.

[tisoz]

[Vaevictis]

For all the reasons above, I think that it's been reasonably argued that the combination isn't too powerful on its own. I think it's also been established that the combination is primarily useful for mages.

The question you need to ask yourself at this point is: Do you really feel the need to nerf the mages in your group?

Basically, if you do that, you're stripping your mages of multiple actions per initiative pass unless they are willing to pay magic points for the privilege, either in the form of essense, bioware, or by requiring them to go magical adept. Is that your goal? Because that's certainly the effect.

[weblife]

*cough*My new character is a mag. adept for that reason*cough*

[Vaevictis]

The thing that makes me chuckle about this is that this is not even nearly the most rediculous minmax you can do; it's just one of the most obvious. With some imagination, it's completely possible to get a concealability 7, reach 2, (STR+5)D melee weapon, for example. (And this is canon... or at least how I read it is ;) )

[weblife]

[Vaevictis]

I wasn't planning on it since it's off-topic, but... basically, customize an assault rifle.

Edit: Aw, wait. I misread bayonet stats. Nevermind. It's (STR+4)S, reach 2, conceal 6 or 7 (or even 5, depending on reading). Still nasty, but not quite as bad.

Base concealability 3. Add Reduced Barrel, +2 Conceal. Add Bullpup Configuration, +2 Conceal, +1 RC. Add Melee Hardening, +1 Power in melee. Add Dikoted Bayonet; per cc.32, it behaves as a polearm in melee combat -- reach 2, (STR+3)M. Add melee hardening, dikote, you get (STR+5)S, reach 2.

You might hear arguments on the concealability; adding a bayonet reduces conceal by 1 per cc.32, but you CAN add it as an integral built-in design option per cc.83, and per sr3.280, the concealability modifer only applies if it's added after-market. Even so, it's still concealability 6.

Note that you still have room for Ceramic Components [1] after all this, and depending on how you read the rules for concealable holsters, you can also put this rifle in a concealable quickdraw holster (cc.33 comments quick draw holsters can hold "pistol sized weapons" as described in quick draw rules sr3.107, which states that "pistol sized" means concealability greater than or equal to 4). As such, under these rules, this weapon is ALSO eligible for quickdraw.

If you were feeling saucy, and you read the "integral components" rule like I did, you might find that stripping FA mode out (which I almost never use) and adding a sound supressor and extended range laser sight might be a nifty idea too. As usual, it's also completely possible to rig this thing up with 6 RC built in via bullpup/pers grip/shock pads/rc built in/heavy barrel.

It ends up being a VERY expensive weapon though, and you need to have a gunsmith facility (or know someone who does, but it's easy enough to buy a lvl2 contact at character creation...). But it is very, very nasty.

I have an adept I am toying with that has this thing fully tricked out; 6 RC, 9M SA/BF, (STR+5)S reach 2, sound supressor, laser, with adept quickdraw power for draw AND melee attack in one action... aptitude for polearms, mean mean mean.

EDIT: When I read the spiel on bayonet in cc, I misread it to mean, "reference sr3 pole-arm for stats." My error.

[Apathy]