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> Horrors, Cycle of Magic and Immortal Elves..., Will they still exist?
JesterX
post Jun 20 2005, 05:15 PM
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What will happen about those?

As far as I know, some creators behind SR4 dislike that those things exists in the SR universe... I wonder what they will make out of those...

However, since that those things were never really in a sourcebook in the first place, I suspect that they won't touch a thing.

Do you think they should take an action about this? If so, what?
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 20 2005, 05:31 PM
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They didn't like horrors or cycles of magic? Man what crack fiends.
They didn't like immortal elves? They're brilliant I say.

IOW I hope they keep cycles of magic, and horrors or other threats from beyond as magic increases, and ditch the immortal elf thing which I felt was even lamer than dritzt. And to have something lamer than the lamest forgoten realms character is well awe inspiring in its suckiness.
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blakkie
post Jun 20 2005, 05:50 PM
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I'm not an ED scholar but i thought that the up time of the magic cycle was thousands of years long, and that the horrors didn't show up until the very peak? So we should see a more gradual move up of the magic level. Or am i offbase there?
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nezumi
post Jun 20 2005, 06:01 PM
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You are. Horrors begin appearing as soon as the magic is strong enough to support them. So generally the leaner the horror, the sooner they can pay us a visit. However, there was a plot that went on to help reinforce the 'wall' between their universe and ours, and seal it off, buying us hundreds or even thousands of years. So unless someone was successful in breaking that from our side, we shouldn't see any new horrors for quite a while.
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blakkie
post Jun 20 2005, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 20 2005, 12:01 PM)
You are.  Horrors begin appearing as soon as the magic is strong enough to support them.  So generally the leaner the horror, the sooner they can pay us a visit.  However, there was a plot that went on to help reinforce the 'wall' between their universe and ours, and seal it off, buying us hundreds or even thousands of years.  So unless someone was successful in breaking that from our side, we shouldn't see any new horrors for quite a while.

I ment Horrors of consequence, not the relatively small number of lesser ones that had made it though. That the ramping up of Horrors would/should take time (Duk's stopgap aside). I know that Drakes were added in Threats 2, but should it really be only a few years between new types of URGE coming online? Shouldn't it be more like decades? Some time back Harley was already able pull off some decently highlevel ED teleport magic. If magic continues to ramp up that quickly won't we be getting near to an ED level world by 2100?
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Grinder
post Jun 20 2005, 06:29 PM
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I heavily dislike the Immortal Nazi Elves crap but it will be difficult to remove them from canon. Even more so when you think of the rising mana level which makes more and more magival things possible like t'skrang and the like.

The ED world is shortly after the peak of the niveau which lasts for 500 years or so now (the scourge 400 and it ended 100 years ago) so i think SR needs some 100 years to come to a close.
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Eldritch
post Jun 20 2005, 06:57 PM
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Yeah, but the peak didn't occur till the middle of the cycle - 3000 years or so from the beginning. So we've got till the year 5000 or so till we really have to worry about it.

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Ancient History
post Jun 20 2005, 07:07 PM
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The next Scourge will start approximately in the year 4111.

The "window" of the Scourge is about 800 years.

And Christ, stop bitching, all of you. Most games don't have to deal with Immortal Elves at any level being giving the finger to the High Prince giving a speech on trid or asking Ehran the Scribe to please sign your copy of Mankind Ascendant.

I don't care if you don't like it, no matter how many times you post that. I notice it hasn't stopped y'all from buying the books.
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nezumi
post Jun 20 2005, 07:11 PM
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Grinder, I suspect you missed a decimal place there.

Yeah, if the magic cycle began on 2012, we should have until at least the year 2,600 time frame before anything serious like verjigorm comes through (and that's accounting for the natural amount of nasty stuff blood magic does to the astral). Of course, there's nothing stopping an author from deciding something jump starts that a bit.
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Eldritch
post Jun 20 2005, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE
The next Scourge will start approximately in the year 4111.

The "window" of the Scourge is about 800 years.


Thanks! I musta had incorrect info - I miscalculated. Whew, that would have been embarassing - Horrors showing up earlier than I'd be prepared for :) No food set up, no guest rooms prepared.....

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blakkie
post Jun 20 2005, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History)
The next Scourge will start approximately in the year 4111.

The "window" of the Scourge is about 800 years.

That is what I thought, a long time off.

I just seem to remember in ED that there being at least a few hundred years of dwarves and such before the first hint of the Horrors to come. The 6th world seems to be running on some sort of compressed timeline.
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hermit
post Jun 20 2005, 07:27 PM
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Canon states that Ghost Dance really rushed things. But players who played Harley's Back, Dirk Montgomery and Dunkelzahn fixed that up again. :)
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Ancient History
post Jun 20 2005, 07:40 PM
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Individual Horrors can pop through before the magic date-that's to be expected. Happens due to mana spikes and summonings.

Horrors require a certain level of mana to enter, but a far lower level of mana to persist.

The Spike Point created by the Great Ghost Dance was such that it would have allowed a great many Horrors to enter...essentially, created a very early mini-Scourge. If not halted, it is plausible these Horrors could have maintained their presence on this plane until the mana level had dropped again...say, in 4,980 years or so.
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blakkie
post Jun 20 2005, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 20 2005, 01:27 PM)
Canon states that Ghost Dance really rushed things. But players who played Harley's Back, Dirk Montgomery and Dunkelzahn fixed that up again. :)

Did it rush the Horrors only, or the actual magic level increase?

EDIT: NM, AH gave the answer i thought it might be. So was it Dunk doing his thing that kept Halley's Comet from bringing in a raft of Horrors? Also shouldn't the comet's spike have set a new high water mark so we shouldn't see much in the way of new funky stuff triggered for a bit?
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Ancient History
post Jun 20 2005, 07:51 PM
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As the mana level rises, more things will come through. That's natural. New paranatural critters, spirits, etc. should appear every year. Halley's Comet coincided with a worldwide mana surge, but it was not tied to the spike point bringing in the Horrors or Dunkelzahn's actions.

The Horrors, however, should only come through at particularly potent local spikes and ritual summonings from this point on, and even then only one or two at a time.
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JesterX
post Jun 20 2005, 08:16 PM
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As far as I know, there was at least 4 rituals that caused mana spikes:

[ Spoiler ]


It seems that using blood magic and real powerful rituals (such as the mist shield of TirNaNog) causes the mana to rise MUCH faster...


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hermit
post Jun 20 2005, 08:17 PM
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Not that just one Verjigorme wouldn't be quite enough ...
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Cynic project
post Jun 20 2005, 08:18 PM
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Now to runners what is the difference between a "weak horror" and a spirit/peracriter? Really If it is a vampire or a horror that drains blood, how would most runners treat it any differently? And do we really need the horrors in shadowrun?

PS AH just because we like more than we dislike doesn't mean we should act as if we like it all.
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Ancient History
post Jun 20 2005, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (JesterX)
As far as I know, there was at least 4 rituals that caused mana spikes

Not quite. All magical acts increase the mana level, however particularly potent acts (of which there are many) can raise the mana level in a specific area considerably enough to allow Horrors to come through on their own. The blood-sacrifices in both Aztlan and Hawai'i were actually bent toward summoning Horrors or opening a gateway-something far different than accidentally letting one through be casting a really big spell.

Cynic: Doesnae mean people should cry into my beer about it either.
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JesterX
post Jun 20 2005, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Cynic project @ Jun 20 2005, 03:18 PM)
Now to  runners what is the difference between a "weak horror" and a spirit/peracriter? Really If it is a vampire or a horror that drains blood, how would most runners treat it any differently? And do we really need the horrors in shadowrun?

PS AH just because we like more than we dislike doesn't mean we should act as if we like it all.

"ONE" Verjigorm?!

I thought that Verji was a named horror... and by that, I mean... Unique... (hopefully!)
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hermit
post Jun 20 2005, 08:32 PM
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You said it: Hopefully!
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Ancient History
post Jun 20 2005, 08:32 PM
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Verjigorm is unique.
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nezumi
post Jun 20 2005, 08:46 PM
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But that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other big baddies of power just short of Verjigorm's. Heck, even one horror with the potency of a dragon, if smart, can wreak some havoc before he's caught.
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Ancient History
post Jun 20 2005, 09:01 PM
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True. However, most Horrors of such power cannot manifest physically at this low mana level, at least not outside of areas of considerable potency, and are constrained to astral operations.
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Grinder
post Jun 20 2005, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (nezumi)
Grinder, I suspect you missed a decimal place there.

Where?
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