 Horrors, Cycle of Magic and Immortal Elves..., Will they still exist? |
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 Jun 22 2005, 06:17 PM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
Um I know they aren't Totems. For one, one can argue if totems are real or not. They do not anywhere fully state taht totems are real to anyone who is not shaman or a believer. Notice how the totems do not always act in the same way,. Not all dogs shamans are the same, nor how they interact with dog. Also totems give you power.. Or do they ? Notice how the elder ones think shamans are jokes? Passions on the other hand are proveable. They have have real world powers. They don't make shamans, or anything like the. That is least what I understand. |
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Jun 22 2005, 07:03 PM
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#52
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
...and Passions can be broken / driven mad. Ristul for the win.
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Jun 22 2005, 07:08 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
The Passions took "Questors" who had a certain range of powers granted to them based on the Passion's purview, so they had devoted followers who received special powers from them. The Passions also somewhat resemble some of the SR idols.
Yeah, they're not exactly totems, but ED isn't exactly SR. I'm just saying that it's a decent way to think about it in terms of what the Passions are: In the same way the Garlen exemplifies all motherly and maternal instincts, Dog exemplifies all the attributes traditionally ascribed to dogs. I'd also like to point out that as the magic level gets higher, and more people believe in totems, they were well could become real entities (if they aren't already). But that's far-future in terms of the current SR magic level (and it's speculation on my part). As Cynic points out, the Passions literally did walk the earth/were physical beings. That's something that the SR totems/idols/etc. don't really do. Edit: added last sentence This post has been edited by Garland: Jun 22 2005, 07:09 PM |
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Jun 22 2005, 07:07 PM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The arguement is moot at this point. Totems might be uber-powerful spirits, and are likely more. Passions might be uber-powerful spirits, and are likely more.
The only ones who could logically debate these matters are at least ten thousand years old and either have scales or pointy ears. The point is moot, since I bet you'll have a better chance of working directly for Lofwyr or Aina than the Spider Totem or Vestrial. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:08 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
Toturi is right... Just look at Assets Inc. mission in the DH trilogy.... That's exactly what you do when you fight against Blood Spirits... Toxic Shamans... Mad AI's... The Invae... Dr. Halberstam... |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:24 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
Infos from Tir Tairngire Sourcebook about passions: This info was taken elsewhere on the net:
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Jun 22 2005, 08:26 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Ah, from the mouths of babes...
Let us say, JesterX, that that is one interpretation of that particular bit of text in Tir Tairngire. |
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Jun 22 2005, 08:29 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
I never owned Tir Tairngire sourcebook (shame on me!). Can you paste the text here if you have it? |
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Jun 22 2005, 09:40 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623 |
Keep the Horrors and Immortal Elves. Have played several campaigns and they are just too much fun. Ok seriously Shadowrun is as much about magic as it is about cyberpunk. That is what gives it its rather unique draw. If you have magic, spirits, elementals and what not then what's the problem with including demon like super creatures? I mean on the flip side you have AI's and the deep resonance right? Include it all and leave it up to the individual Story Teller on what he or she wants to include or leave out.
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Jun 22 2005, 09:46 PM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I always took that to mean that it was an insulting misrepresentation to elves to suggest they were shamans that were following Passions like totems. Insulting to the point that they'd be motivated to snuff the speaker for making the suggestion. |
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Jun 22 2005, 10:35 PM
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#61
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
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Jun 23 2005, 01:56 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 358 Joined: 12-May 05 From: The nearest UV host near you... Member No.: 7,390 |
Hmmm you're right... That can be interpreted in various ways. However, assuming that Harlequin is really speaking with Vestrial in "Voices from the Past". (No proof that this is Vestrial... Not even proofs that Harlequin isn't even speaking to himself!), that could mean that -H- really dislike passions (especially Vestrial...) Anyway, the funny thing about Harlequin is that he is taking the name of a Commedia Dell'Arte italian theater character that personifies "The Trickery, Good Humor and Pranks" which were Vestrial's domain before becoming mad ... |
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Jun 23 2005, 03:48 AM
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#63
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
coincidence? doubt it |
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Jun 23 2005, 06:54 AM
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#64
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I have in previous posts to Dumpshock expressed how much I like the SR/ED connection. I personally love it. But if they are remarketing a new and redesigned game to attract new players I don't think including the connection is a good idea without expanding on it much more. My players and I have wasted several hours per campaign just trying to explain the extra metaplot that the new players were missing and were wondering what we were talking about.
I just think it is a very bad marketing idea to include as part of your product the contents of another product that is owned by a completely different company and which you have no control over. This is doubly apparent in my case when you take my negative comments about Living Room Games' treatment of ED and the glacialy slow production of Red Brick. When ED and SR were run by the same company it made sense--cross promotion, quality control and whatnot. However, it is dangerous and, I think, needless at this point to keep the connection going. It's a new edition with completely new rules for a new market...why should previous connections still matter? You can easily let them fall to the background. In fact this is the best time. In my opinion it is unwise as a BUSINESS decision to do so...no matter how much fun the connection is. |
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Jun 23 2005, 02:43 PM
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#65
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 27-May 05 From: Toulouse, France Member No.: 7,416 |
I don't know where you're coming from here, but according to my cultural origins, you can consider me a celt and there I'll tell you that all the faery tales talking about elves I've heard since my childhood (and I'm not talking about Tolkien whom has - mostly - just combined many european legends and themes) make elves, faeries, and such, the closest thing to immortal things there is by being magical creatures (i.e. spirits) per essence. |
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Jun 23 2005, 08:48 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623 |
The official splat that went along with the announcment of 4th edition states that "Source material from previous editions will still be compatible". This would seem to indicate that while the rules underpinning how things are done will change, cannon on world history will not be changing but simply advanceing. This would mean that IM elves should still be present and while Horrors may not be included in the new books (much as they were not included in 3rd edition) they are not going to be expressly written against. Can't wait to get my hands on the book and see if that's true or not, lol.
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Jun 24 2005, 04:51 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 338 Joined: 17-September 04 From: Pueblo Sector of Denver Member No.: 6,672 |
Personally, I despise the horrors. Finding out about their existence was the one thing that made me want to give up on SR. I was worried enough about the bugs being extra-planar D&D look-alikes.
I kinda hope that the Harly turnes out to be crazy. The the immortal elves turn out to be clones or something else. It'd be realy neat if they presented some non-cyclical theories of magic too. I can't put my finger on it, they just frustereated me. As far as I can tell from reading the books Shadowrun is Cyberpunk with magic (At least that's how we always played it), the horrors feel like fantasy with cyberware. |
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Jun 24 2005, 04:51 AM
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#68
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
That's how I see it (and that is how we played it). More Fantasy with Cyberware than Cyberpunk with Magic. |
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Jun 24 2005, 05:24 AM
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#69
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh. i don't see it. there aren't any good guys in SR; therefore, it's not really fantasy.
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Jun 24 2005, 05:35 AM
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#70
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Speak for yourself MFB... ;) I've seen more than a few "good" characters in Shadowrun. But the nice thing about it is you can play whatever you want, good, bad, indifferent.
And for the last few years, FanPro's official stance has been to ignore the actual Earthdwan products. Yes, there's a 4th world that bears a striking resemblance to the Earthdawn setting. But FanPro isn't bound to the material. So if they want to introduce a Great Dragon that's been around for millions of years, but doesn't match up with ED, they'll just shrug and go "oh well". And sure, they'll do things like what they did with Ghostwalker... throw in an never-quite-outright stated tie in... But you don;t have to be familiar with ED to use Ghostwalker. Any necessary info is given within the SR material. Anything else is just fluff for the hardcore junkies to go research. So if LRG decides to kill off the dragon that becomes Ghostwalker... they're free to do so, and Fanpro won't try and retcon it, because they're not tied tgether at all. Also as a note, this was something FASA had implemented prior to them shutting down. Bull |
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Jun 24 2005, 05:51 AM
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#71
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, sure, you can play 'em. but what i mean is, there's no overarching "good" group being threatened by evil. you've got the huge herds of normal people, who don't care about anything except their own self-absorbed happiness; you've got the greater masses of disaffected poor, who would kill their own families if it meant getting a good meal; you've got the corporate upper class, who see nothing but the bottom line; you've got the IEs and GDs, who see humanity as pawns on a giant chessboard; and you've got shadowrunners, who [see disaffected poor]. there's nobody for a crusading character to save--and there's no evil for a crusading character to strike down, which means crusaders have to be very careful not to become zealots.
what divides it for me, i think, is the fact that the archtypical shadowrun game revolves around people who commit crimes for money. that's not fantasy. |
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Jun 24 2005, 07:23 AM
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#72
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Ahh, I get you. Misread you the first time. I thought you meant "You can't play 'good' charcaters", which seemed a tad naive.
But yeah,. you're correct. There really isn't any sort of overarching "good" groups. EVen the closest we get, like Ares or Dunklezahn, usually have selfish and/or ulterior motives for everything they do. Bull |
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Jun 24 2005, 07:34 AM
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#73
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Ares is close to an overarching "good guy" group?
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Jun 24 2005, 07:37 AM
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#74
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
eh, yeah. sorta. Firewatch is Ares. that doesn't make every Ares johnson an angel, but if you can say "Ares" does bad things, you can say "Ares" does good things.
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Jun 24 2005, 07:41 AM
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#75
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Why Because they hunt bugs!?
THere's been notes about how the price of an Ares predator is below normal cost (aka street index) because one of their distributors basically flooded the market (streets with them) and the higher ups were pissed. Pissed of course, not becuase they were putting all their guns on the street, but because the price for them was going down because of supply and demand. Not very 'good guy-ish'. Tends to stick more with the usual 'bottom-line-ish' |
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