 moving closer to cyberpunk..., eminent domain- you haven no rights! |
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 Jun 24 2005, 08:34 AM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398  |
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...-home-headlines
In a 5-4 ruling, the US Supreme Court has effectively abolished what remained of private property rights. In an extreme deviation from the original intent of "for public use", the court has vastly expanded the scope of Eminent Domain by ruling that "as long as officials hope to create jobs or raise tax collections, they can seize the homes of unwilling sellers". That's right, folks, your US home can be seized if the government decides that an office building or shopping center will create more jobs and/or taxes than you do. Sure, property owners are entitled to "just compensation", but this is also essentially decided by the government. In the words of dissenting justices, "Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party," and, "The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms." (O'Conner) And this is a Supreme Court ruling! There is no further chance of appeal short of reversal by a subsequent Supreme Court! If you still do not fully grasp the implications of this, let me put it this way: Since all property is now potentially subject to seizure, government officials and politically connected people can now use Eminent Domain to target and harass specific groups and individuals. A person or an organization -- even a church can now be forcibly removed from an area by drawing up the appropriate development plans. The essential (Natural) rights are life, liberty and property. These rights are interconnected. That is to say, a violation of property rights is tantamount to encroachment on the other two rights of life and liberty, because this is essentially a violation of free choice (liberty) and the time and effort (your life) it took to create or obtain that property. You have no rights. The Supreme Court just said so. (taken from here with permission) |
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Jun 24 2005, 08:40 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not according to the Bill of Rights. the three natural rights are life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. "property" didn't make it in because the crown personally owned all the land the colonies lived on, so including "property" would be self-defeating--the whole point of the revolution was to steal the crown's land.
tangent aside, i agree--that is some scary shit, right there. |
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Jun 24 2005, 08:48 AM
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#3
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Y-woah.
Ooookay now. Time to start buying assualt rifles, ammo, and kevlars. This is bull. BULLcrapicus. |
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Jun 24 2005, 08:53 AM
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#4
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
As an aside, I wonder how long it is until Extraterritoriality? God I hope not...
This is some scary and insane crap... I'm sitting here and watching my nation flush itself right down the crapper. |
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Jun 24 2005, 08:54 AM
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#5
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Sweet! I can't wait to get a job as a jackbooted thug, able to pillage and roam where and how I please. This'll be great.
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Jun 24 2005, 08:59 AM
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#6
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Hooo boy...
Where does the word Jackboot come from, and what does it mean, anyhow... /me never got that. |
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Jun 24 2005, 09:20 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Jackboots (Deutsch: Schaftstiefel) aka "Knobelbecher" (lit: Dice rolling cups) are long boots (mid-claf in the latest incarnation) without laces, held up by close fitting. The latest users where some of the GoodGuys that is the Sowjet Army, the East German Peoples army (both at least on the dress uniform) and, until the 1943/44 uniform issue, the German Wehrmacht. The latter, also featuring a hobnailed sole IIRC, are the common root of the "oppresiv Jackboot" quotes. WWII Veterans always told us that the best piece of equipment introduced in the german Bundeswehr are the modern combat boots and that jackboots where a lousy footwear, even more so in the winter. Birdy |
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Jun 24 2005, 09:22 AM
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#8
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Aaaaaah.
Enlightenment dawns. I thank you. *bows to Birdy.* |
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Jun 24 2005, 09:23 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
At least this explains corp enclaves etc. Why own your own home and the land it's on when the government can sieze both, build an Azzie mall in their place and give you $5 UCAS in "compensation"? I'd be begging to have my home owned by a megacorp.
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Jun 24 2005, 09:35 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,362 Joined: 3-October 03 From: Poway, San Diego County, CA, USA Member No.: 5,676 |
Not quite. The company building the office building doesn't sieze your home; The government does it on their behalf. The company would have to petition the local government to evict you, and so the local government would have to be willing to do so. I can't imagine this being done very often, but if the need for that specific plot of land is compelling enough, well, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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Jun 24 2005, 09:38 AM
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#11
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Wow Panzer. You're not getting it.
Yeah... This is frightening. VERY frightening. |
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Jun 24 2005, 09:57 AM
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#12
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Well, there's a difference between "not getting it" and "freaking out and running to the store to buy the necessary supplies for a tin foil hat."
I think he was spot no when he said "I don't imagine this sort of thing happening very often." Yes, they can do it if they want to, now, and there's nothing you can do about it. No, I don't think that means it'll happen with amazing frequency and without good reason. Yes, I try to think the best of my government. No, I know I'm not right very often about that. ;) |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:07 AM
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#13
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Forget the tinfoil hat, I'm stocking up on ammo and food and water.
*very spooked.* |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:27 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Reading is good for you. Try it some time.
IRL, in a civilized Western country, you're right. But assuming there's no legal restraing for governments to do so in the world of Shadowrun? Because we all know (semi-)cyberpunk governments aren't at all corrupt. |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:25 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 4-September 04 Member No.: 6,628 |
It is pretty scary, I guess the big question is where does it end? We have similar laws here in Canada though with no major conflicts yet.
I imagine though if it begins a landslide of corporate takeovers, there might be civil war...maybe John Titor wasn't crazy afterall. :P |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:36 AM
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#16
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Err, yeah. Sorry. Thought we were all yakking about RL. I mean, it's a great law to have on the books, and sets a fantastic precedence for anyone wanting to do cyberpunkish writing or whatever, sure. I agree with that totally. I don't, personally, find it all that "scary," though. I understand how it could be, but I don't think it will be. Plus, well, I don't own all that much stuff. So I ent skeered. |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:39 AM
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#17
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
No, the needs of the rich outweigh the needs of the poor! Another application of the 'Golden Rule'. Whoever has the gold makes the rules. :D |
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Jun 24 2005, 10:41 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
AFAIK the state, here in Denmark, has always had the privilege of apropriating land if the greater good was dependent on it. Fx for railroads and highways etc.
And yes, there have been cases where the public value of the land has mysteriously decreased in the years leading up to a takeover. These cases usually get whipped up in the media, and a compromise is found between the current owner and the city. - Usually it still ends up to the citys benefit. Private person vs. The System = Automatic win for the System. |
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Jun 24 2005, 01:32 PM
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#19
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
But a railway isn't the same as a strip mall, or beach condos. There have been quite a number of cases of a house owned by a family for generations getting bought for the low price end (since it's the gov't who pays the appraiser) and demolished for some big corp to move in 'because it's for the public good'. Forget saving up for a house, I'm saving up for ammo! |
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Jun 24 2005, 04:07 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 102 Joined: 13-March 04 From: Apparently in front of a computer. Member No.: 6,153 |
dude ya! im with nezumi on this one. that is frickin scary! i'll be doing to things: 1. buying mucho guns (in like a couple months because then its legal) 2. buying corporate offic... i mean land. :D 3. Complaing to my uncle as he is very well connected in DC. 4. playing shadowrun to get ready and to of course build up my soul for the coming crap! j.k. :grinbig: |
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Jun 24 2005, 04:24 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
By the way this has been happening for decades, the supreme court just (stupidly) made it official.
Wal-Mart, Target and other big box stores are some of the more egregious examples, but just about every major city has a sports stadium where eminent domain was used to give a bunch of multi-millionaires and thier employers a place of business on prime real estate. But yea, reminds me of the post on that thread about the lifestyle customization rules: real estate development is fertile ground for shadowruns. |
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Jun 24 2005, 04:47 PM
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#22
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Dammit, I just closed on my first house YESTERDAY.
Timing is everything. :P |
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Jun 24 2005, 05:53 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
The "just compensation" might be decided by the government but now it's backed by a supreme court judgement. Expect the court to expand on exactly what "just compensation" means sooner or later. Whenever a property is seized and compensation ends up below market value, I'd assume the case will be taken to court.
All in all, nothing to get panicked about IMO. It doesn't really change the statu quo and if rules for "just compensation" becomes clarified and codified as a result of this ruling, it could improve it. In the states, anyway. |
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Jun 24 2005, 05:54 PM
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#24
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The Supreme Court isn't the only court in the land. It is just the highest Federal Court. It can only rule on matters of Federal Inerest. If a State court determines that State law restricts eminent domain then the Supreme Court rulling doesn't matter at all in that State..
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Jun 24 2005, 06:08 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
This is only one component. The other component is political sustainability. If the Federal government were to go around seizing property left and right the question would become whether or not there'd be enough political opposition to change the law again or not.
I won't worry about it till abuses start happening. |
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