Fixed TN - what's the big deal?, Trying to understand certain objections Options

[Cheops]

Ellery you're also forgetting the convenience factor. Not only does the MMO look slick and is fun to play but it is also hella easier to play. You don't have to invest as much time or effort just in creating and running the world nor do you have to go through the difficulty of trying to schedule a bunch of people to show up in one place at one time to play.

MMO RPGs are going to cause a large consolidation in the paper and pen RPG industry over the timeframe I mentioned and it's going to be very difficult for the genre to survive. CRPGs haven't had the desired effect for the tabletop gaming industry--a few CRPG gamers have crossed over from just computer gaming to regular gaming but those numbers are very small. It hasn't had the desired effect of introducing the games to the video game players and then those players purchasing the paper version.

As technology progresses the computer games will get better and better at simulating the paper and pen gaming. Someone even mentioned over on the Shadowrun video game thread that they should have made it an MMO instead of a FPS like they've leaked. I can guarantee that there would be lots of players on this forum that would essentially stop playing the pen and paper version of Shadowrun if they and their groups could play something that simulates the game on-line. I've already seen that with City of Heroes--no one seems to run Mutants and Masterminds anymore. Why go through the bother of arranging a game when they can all meet online and adventure together anyway?

Pen and paper RPGs have to do something in the next few years to react to this trend I think. Now, I don't know what the solution is but the general downturn in the overall RPG market, which is partially responsible for SR4, is not going to reverse itself on its own because it isn't just another normal economic cycle. I suggested to a friend who freelances and playtests for L5R that the pen and paper gaming companies should start buying booths at video game conventions and promoting the genre--not just their own products--to raise awareness and interest. I don't know if they do this already and it probably wouldn't cause massive numbers of people who'd play both CRPGs and regular RPGs but it would probably stop the bleeding.

[Critias]

I disagree. "Pen and paper" RPGs aren't in the same world as MMO's, for the simple reason that it's a social gathering and a group storytelling, every bit as much as it's a "game." I've played my share of MMO's, I've played my share (and his share, and her share, and their share) of on-line RPGs, and I've played my share of sit-down face to face munch on pizza drink sodas and BS with my friend's pen and paper RPGs...

The former shit's just there for when you can't play the latter. No fancy whiz-bang graphics are gonna change that. The lacking attention span of a new generation might wear down the popularity a bit, but they aren't goin' the way of the dinosaur for a lot, lot, longer than a 5-10 year window.

[Taki]

[Wireknight]

MMORPGs also, at least in the case of World of Warcraft, have a random potential reward system (i.e. superior, rare, and epic drops that occur ~5%, ~1%, and ~0.1% of the time respectively) that mimicks the reward structure for a number of types of gambling, and can prove highly addictive to people who are similarly susceptible to the lures of, say, slot machines. That gives them a real edge in maintaining user base.

My problems with MMORPGs, in their supposed role of pen-and-paper replacement, are as follows:

1. Monthly fees. Once I've gotten the basic rules, I can play a P&PRPG for an indefinite period of time with no further monetary investment. Any future investment I make, through additional sourcebooks, is purely voluntary. I needn't even pay for additional sourcebooks if a cohesive enough group exists that a mutual library may be assembled from all members' collections. This is not the case with a MMORPG. If I wish to continue playing it, I must pay a monthly fee.

2. Immutable world. While you might gain rep among other players, there is virtually nothing that anyone can do, ever, to shape the current or future development of the virtual world of a MMORPG. The designers attempt to grant you the feel of doing this by presenting increasingly global-scope/metaplot-rich quests, but the illusion of making a difference fades pretty quickly when you head to face the uberboss or get the uberartifact and meet six other groups who are on their way to doing it, in the process of doing it, or are heading back after doing it before you. Likewise, participation in "world events" does not equate to actual influence on the manner in which the world develops. These events are scripted, and their outcomes predetermined.

3. Time and effort. In a P&PRPG, you can take a pretty significant break and not fall behind your fellow players. A generous GM can even allow you to develop non-played backstory that could justify powering your character up enough to keep them in the same league as more regular players. In a MMORPG, if you fall behind, you will find that you cannot play with the same people that have advanced their characters into a league where attempting to join them will slow them down and result in little progress and lots of deaths on your part.

4. Immersion. In a P&PRPG, it's bad form to rattle off the damage your desired weapon does or your various stats or other metagame rules-level talents, or to break character. In a MMORPG, on the other hand, refusing to do these things is the aberration, and it's hard to ignore the majority of players who do so. It's hard to reinforce the idea that you are a troll shaman braving the perils of the world of Azeroth when all channels are being spammed by "LFG Scholo holy spec priest PST" and "WTS icy weapon, blue glow, stun proc, 45G".

MMORPGs are fun, but they don't fulfill the same entertainment/creative expression niche, for me, as P&PRPGs. I do not think that they ever will, for that matter.

[Nikoli]

Well, Blizzard is attempting to make WoW mutable. There are supposedly one time events in the game world that when accomplished successfully NPC's will react to the party/raid responsible and remember them as the heros or villains they are. No one on that server will be able to do the event again. I can't cite and specific examples just yet, but I think they haven't put them in.

Now, I think P&P RPG's will be in serious trouble when MMO's allow for radical outside the box thinking or at least thinking more in terms of players of said P&P RPG's. How many of you have said, if only I had a rope and a grappling hook I'd climb this and get the treasure in an MMO? I have ye tto see an MMO with a good climbing system DAoC came closer than any but not quite there yet as MMO's go (Haven't played CoH so it might have climbing, I know they have free form flight which is definintely a first for MMO's).
The fact is the programmers have already determinied every possible action you as a player can take and have programmed specific events for those actions, so that one maybe two viable strategies exist outside f raw brute strength zerging and anything else is usually deemed an explot of the system.

[Cheops]

AND...lots of people from the pen and paper gaming industry...such as writers and developers are making the crossover to video gaming...as a lot of the smaller companies start dying off there's going to be a big, unemployed talent pool for those MMOs to start drawing on.

Oh look the new SR MMO has all of the developers and main writers from the p&p game working as storywriters and game world editors on the video game...hmm...wonder if I should give it a try?

Look at how far MMO rpgs have come in the PAST 10 years...CRPGs in general for that matter. And MMOs are just starting to catch on IN THE MAINASTREAM. As companies start making more and more money with them then more and more money will be invested in making the latest and greatest MMO. P&P really has a cap--the imagination of the group and the lack of other social opportunities. MMOs, at the most basic level, are something you can just sit down for half an hour and have fun playing before you go out to the movies with your partner or sit down to dinner with your family. You can't do that with P&P (which is the convenience point I was trying to make that a lot of you seemed to miss).

The last time I sat down and said "hmm I have the afternoon free, wonder if the guys can get together for a game?" and they actually could was back in high school. As opposed to "I wonder if some of the dozen plus people I know on this MMO are playing right now and want to team together?" which happens all the time.

[chevalier_neon]

It's been something like 10 years that I am hearing that Pen and Papers RPG were dying... And indeed they are, but not as fast as some pretend.
Why are they dying ? Because of the competition of some other kind of games, and of the increasing laziness of the people (don't want to think, don't want to do anything, me just want to have fun).
But basically, if Pen and Papers RPG die, they won't be replaced by anything else.. because MMO cannot reproduce the imagination of a human being, and we are still far away from that (and the day such a deu... haem, such an AI will be created, it won't be used by MMO companies in my opinion).
Yes Pen and Papers RPG will die, and nothing will success to 'em... they call that natural selection... even dinosaurs have to leave one day ;)

[Synner]

[Shadow]

Thats because MMO's have a very finite life. They nee dto make %90 of their sales in the first month before the word gets out that they suck. And to be honest most of them do. Even WoW and CoH have serious playability issues. Namely that you are doing the same thing over and over and over again. Some games hide this so that you don't really spot it till a few months have gone by (WoW) other embrace is (CoH) but manage to hold their audiance a different way (costumes).

But when it comes down to it there all the same with different graphics, the same cannot be said for RPGs. D&D and Shadowrun are as about as different as it gets.

[Kagetenshi]

Also, as has been mentioned, MMOs are a serious time investment. Contrary to what others have been saying, they're much more time-costly than pen-and-paper—trick is, the up-front cost is lower while the long-term cost is much higher. As a result, while I as a first-person shooter gamer buy all sorts of different games, a MMO player is unusual if they play more than two—even two is a bit uncommon.

~J

[Kyoto Kid]

[Cheops]

yeah I did a study too with a bunch of friends who are business savvy...about marketing PDAs with all the GM and player info on them plus various utilities that groups could use

most of the RPG industry is privately owned so they don't have to tell you how much money they are investing and losing...whereas the CRPG and MMO industry is publicly owned so they have to truthfully report how much they are losing

pen and paper rpgs have been losing money for years...not necessarily the company but the industry

I realize this is the wrong board to say this harsh truth but...we're all going the way of the dinosaur and as bad as I think SR4 is going to be...I hope they find a way to keep it alive for my son's/daughter's generation

[Synner]

[Nikoli]

Well, short term, yes MMOs will slow down some players. However the ones that want a story driven, dynamic game will eventually find their way to P&P games. Every MMO I've played bored me to tears after a couple of months or so. I've been playing P&P games as regular as life allows every weekend for the last decade. there isn't an MMO that can compete with that staying power.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Ellery]

Why do people always add concessions? Bring your own, or eat beforehand :P

[Kagetenshi]

Well, there's the pretty large concession to mediocrity you need to make to see most movies nowadays…

~J

[Ellery]

Indeed, but at least that concession only devalues your soul, not your bank account.

[Eldritch]

Have you been to the movies lately? Try with a family of 6 - movies, pop corn, snacks, drinks - it's just not possible unless you go to a matinee (sp).

Movie going is definetly the sport of the single and childless these days. Dunno how it is across the country, but here in NorCal it's up close to $10 per person.

[Nikoli]

Netflix my friend, Netflicks. Sure you don't see them when they come out but the company is more pleasant, the atmosphere is usually to your liking the candy, soda and popcorn are all exactly what you want and it's tones cheaper.

[Eldritch]

Yah - blockbuster over here.

But you know, when I was a kid - I loved going to the movies - big screen, big sound. Very cool. Hell, for 5 bucks I could walk down, get in and grab a candy bar. I saw empire strikes back several times that way. My kids are lucky to get into the theater twice in a year.

[Nikoli]

I know the feeling. i suggest you save your theatre money and invest in a good home theatre system, around 1200 watts and then you can have your own sound, etc.

[Eldritch]

:) thats the plan - one bit at a time. Got a big room. Got a big screen tv. Decent dvd player. Surround sound is next. The a big-ole popcorn machine. And soda fountain ;)

[Nikoli]

I so want a soda fountain in my house. My gaming buddies keep probably two bottling companies in business as it is. A fountain might be cheaper for me in the long run, but it's tough to justify

[Kagetenshi]

Charge them. 25¢ a litre or something. If you get the syrup wholesale, you'll still be making a profit.

The bottle/can is by far the most expensive part of a soda to produce.

~J