 Fixed TN - what's the big deal?, Trying to understand certain objections |
  |
 Jun 30 2005, 05:58 PM
Post
#51
|
|
|
Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
technically, that's only with melee weapons. and only P damage.
|
 |
 
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 06:00 PM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
And it's not clear whether you need to have Sacrificing metamagic to do it. I'd assumed that you did need sacrificing, since otherwise it's a ridiculous place to put a rule on self-inflicted damage. However, given the organization of SR3 rules, maybe that's not valid reasoning....
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 06:01 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The entire sentence: "Assume a character can inflict any desired level of Physical damage on himself." Nothing limiting it to the context of blood magic or melee weapons (in either that sentence or the section surrounding it), though it doesn't apply to stun. Now that I reread, though, it doesn't specify that it has to be a weapon—the reference to "symbolic purposes" earlier clearly only applies to blood magic rather than the act of damaging itself.
My take on it is that it's a valid general-purpose rule placed in a special-purpose case because no one thought about its other useful properties. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 06:02 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, read the rest of the rules. inflicting damage on one's self for sacrificing is a subset of inflicting damage on living creatures for sacrificing. therefore, it follows all the other rules except where noted.
i mean, sure, any reasonable GM will allow any character to kill themselves with a gun, and possibly a knife. but if you're talking about rules... |
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 06:04 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm reading them, and I'm not seeing anything restricting it to the blood magic case.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 06:12 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Like I said: it's not clear.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 09:05 PM
Post
#57
|
|||||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Then i'd have to say your idea of broken is broken. :P
I can spot a number of dubious assumptions about rules, the cops not being able to get a single success (?), that shooting out 8 dispersed headlights (assuming only one bulb each side of the car instead of two) and 4 spotlights is something trivial, that creating a confusing environment SHOULDN'T give the whiz gunman a strong upperhand, all the cops using poor Edge spending, cops not using their actions for something more productive like fleeing to safety or keeping their heads down while calling for backup or changing the environment/location of the battle, etc. Could it be that tactics still matter? Nah, not without a Combat Pool. :S |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jun 30 2005, 09:29 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
If the mods take you below one die, and you get one regardless - that is broken. As has been mentioned before, at that point throw caution to the wind. The guy with 8 firearms vs the guy with one both roll one if there are -8 d in mods. Thats not right.
If the Threshold mods take it higher than your total die pool, thats an impossible situation - not fair to the player - as has been mentioned it promotes fatalism - cant succeed, hand me a new character. - That is broken as well. Things can still be hard, but nothing reasonable should be impossible. Every game session I've ever run for Sr in 15 years has had at least one situation where the players were trying for that TN20 (Or there abouts). And when they get that first 6, and roll again - well thats fun. Adding up the thereshold mods, looking at their skill/pool and saying, "Sorry. Cant do that It requires 4 success and your pool is only 2." Sucks - It sucks to say as a gm, and to hear as a player. If edge is supposed to 'level the palying field' then the cyber heavy or magic character may not be able to afford edge at char gen. Having an Edge attribute shouldn't be the difference between Possible and Impossible. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 09:46 PM
Post
#59
|
|||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Why? If the conditions are so bad that any shot by anyone is just a pig in a poke? If you don't have enough skill to overcome then you are in the same boat as everyone else, just trying to win the Blind Shot Lottery.
Then i guess they better choose well what 'ware and/or magic they pick to best cover off contigencies. Assuming that you can have a zero for the Edge attribute. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jun 30 2005, 09:54 PM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Ok, lets change the example from Combat to computer use. Guy with one die, and the Nerd with 8. -8 die in mods. The mods are all technical in nature. Do you rellay think the skilled guy would have just as difficult time as the unskilled guy? Lock picking - an incredibly complex lock - -8d to your skill roll. Guy A had a lock picking pool of 8. Guy b has 1. So the guy with years of experience has just as difficult a time as the guy with none? Survival - Cold, stormy, no gear, wounded, the works -8d in mods.. Guy a with Survival 8 stands the same chance as guy b with 1 die??? Thats not right.
That could turn Edge into an Uber-must have attribute. The attribute voted Most Likely To get raised with first Karma Award. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 30 2005, 10:00 PM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
except it doesn't work like that at all, blakkie. what about the guy with 10 dice for a firearms test, in that same -8 dice situation? all of the sudden, it's not the Blind Shot Lottery anymore. your modifiers limit all ranges of skill below a certain threshold to the same chance of success, but allows greater chances of success above that threshold. that's bad mechanics.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 30 2005, 10:04 PM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Since you didn't bother give examples for what those negative modifiers equate to, i guess i could? So lets pick, i don't know, survival? Now what would a -8 be? *shrug* Maybe you were in the bathroom a in transport plane that crashed on a mountain side in a snowstorm. No map, no idea of the local terrain outside right in front of, no in-hand gear, wearing nothing but a silk Hawaii print shirt, soaking wet with toliet water, in a full out blizzard. A hit maybe reprents slipping into crevas, that protects you from the wind, where some survival gear from plane jut happened to slide? That is enough for you to live long enough that a search team comes and finds you? *shrug* Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. EDIT: BTW i did mention that i thought it might be a good idea to put a floor on how negative the die count could go before you just don't get a roll. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 1 2005, 02:33 AM
Post
#63
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
Er, I did:
The guy with a survival skill pool of 8, with those coditions would limp out of the woods in a few days, healed, healthy and in good spirits. The guy with one would crap himself silly and probably die within a few moments from exposure. Your counter example of finding gear would take away some of the negative die, changing the example completley. Making it -6 as opposed to -8 (for example)
Dunno didn't notice if you did or not. So in SR3 you'd put a cap on modifiers? Once something got past -TN 16 its impossible? Just don't roll? Thats lame. It's not like someone is asking to make a athletics roll to survive a 24 story fall - but if theyve got the grapple gun, yeah let them roll to hit the top of the building with a 16 target number. And let them rool their pool. And Karma reroll on top of that. Whatever - as long as they are having fun. Your way is no fun - fatalistic. I couldn't stand a game where things where just impossible. Shooting the target at 500 yards in a crosswind with a damaged rifle. Shouldn't be impossible, just really really (TN 20) hard. What kind of threshold/ negative die cap would you put before it became impossible?? And for giggles, convert that to SR3 TN modifier. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 1 2005, 11:40 AM
Post
#64
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408 |
Why not put on a cap, say TN36 in SR3, do you think it would change anything to have the smallest chance of success (beyond which everything has the same chance, even if you are wounded, etc) set at (1/6)^6 which is very very very small.
On a different note, what if (yeah what if, we wont have any idea how anything is being implemented untill we have more information) The number of Dice is largely controlled by the player (say wounds remove dice as one of the only dice penalties) so you might opt to give up dice for some other action (-2 dice for a called shot, etc) The point being, maybe the only thing the GM controls is the Threshold (we dont know how this works either really) and Threshold might be between 1 and 10 (1 easy, 10 increbly hard) with each hit past the threshold being a sucess (or possibly each threshold hits counts as a sucess) Then we wont often have things that are impossible unless you are a nearly dead low skill individual trying at a hard task (which i mean come on, if you have both your arms and legs cut off you are not going to be able to keep Aurther off your bridge) In any case Edge could do any number of fun things beyond just adding dice or enabling exploding six's (and might refresh how often? no clue, once a week, once a session, once a run, once per scene?) Anyways I'd be happy with a maximum -4 dice penalty (you can always add edge dice to get more than the penalty) and with a threshold ranging between 1 and 10, which gives tons of possiblities from insanely easy to insanely hard (but still accomplishable like a TN36) |
|
|
|
|
Jul 1 2005, 01:39 PM
Post
#65
|
|||||||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I meant a more specifics so i could give an example of what getting enough hits meant. :P I was actually thinking of giving even more specifics, but was rushed. No i didn't change the modifiers, that is what i'm getting at. They rolled and got crap lucky, i just gave an example of how the GM could explain them pulling off the near impossible with dumb luck. Gathering up more resources to aid your goal would be part of a Survival skill, yes? However the more i thought about it, the more i realised what i gave was probably a better example of why you aren't likely to see a -8 modifier. Some of the difficulty should be in the threshhold. This could be where mfb was having difficulty (at that point in time) gronking the situational modifiers and how to write them. When he was talking about difficulties "writing rules" under SR4. Some time back when i first heard of them switching to the fixed TN i thought perhaps the easiest way to have the classification would be negatives increase threshhold, positives increase dice. Benefits would be no substracting and easier to catagorize there are only three choices (like in SR3) not four. The downside is that all the negatives are defined in the less precise threshhold. But given that the norm is to not have exploding 6's that makes the negative much more costly, so i guess SR4 will have to go with some threshhold/die modifier split. That means the the person giving the Skill specifics, or the GM when you get outside boundaries of the written rules, han to classify which modifies, or in better words is part of, the threshhold and which modifies the die pool. The core of the rules much have instructions on which goes where across any situation. Having a the decision logic stated in a clear, concise way is a very important part of uniform mechanism. At that point either the rules didn't describe this well, or mfb was still uncomfortable with it.
Yes, i did muse about it somewhere in here. In SR3? Well there already is one there for negatives when Defaulting and there is one for positives. :P After the possibility of success is down to less than 1% around TN20 with two dice (since noone ever has just one die ;) ), it does start losing real relavence to give the roll (unless they have a truckload of Karma Pool). *shrug* Another possibility is at the floor the player loses the last die and if they want to roll they have to rely solely on Edge dice. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jul 1 2005, 04:03 PM
Post
#66
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
*shrug* Dunno. The system, as presented so far seems broken. We can 'what if' and 'could be' all day, but until we know more it dosen't matter. I just don't see how they can make the system work well;
Thats from the magazine article. I couldn't find anything presented that stated thresholds would be modified. (But I could have missed it) Based on that line alone, some tests would be impossible. If a test requires 2 successes, and your skill is 4 and your mods are -3d, then you cannot succeed. And that little scenario seems feasable. SR3: GM: "OK blakkie, you have a computer skill of one, the modified TN is 12". (Base TN + Moderate stun damage, + security rating of system, + difficult conditions (In a fire fight, used a KP to keep the damage from the mana ball to mod.) Blakkie: *Rolls Dice* The tension mounts.... SR4: GM: "OK Blakkie, you need two successes, your skill is 2, but you have -4d in mods. So you get the one token die. Oh damn, you used your Edge Die to survie the first round of combat so that the Manaball only moderatly wounded you instead of seriously. Blakkie: "er, damn. that sucks." *And lives with it* Certainly a guess, but a decent one. You tell me Blakkie, as a player (Or GM) which of the above scenarios is more fun? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 1 2005, 04:13 PM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 14-June 05 Member No.: 7,444 |
I have to agree that, once a situation gets seriously extreme, skill is no longer the issue, but luck. Once it's pitch black with no light at all, the guy with Pistols 10 is in as much drek as the pistols 1 guy. But it has to be really, REALLY extreme to get to that point.
Yes, stranded in the middle of nowhere with nothing is extreme. But not extreme enough for that sort of modifier; as GM I would say that having training in Survival just means more hits needed rather than a silly dice penalty. Having two sliders for difficulty does make some improvements after all. You don't just have to knock dice off everything, just up the hits needed. Heck, even knock a coupla dice off for the harsh environment and up the hit rate a little, but don't just knock dice off. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 1 2005, 04:42 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Even threshhold doesn't change the issue. If you've got a threshold of 3, either anything that reduces your thrown dice below 3 makes the test impossible or there needs to be a weird kludge that increases the number of dice you get under some penalty conditions.
(Example: for every die under the threshold you would end up at, you get an additional two dice but need to make one additional hit to succeed. It works, sorta, but is messy as hell) Again, the developers may have a solution. I'm just worried because I still can't imagine what it would be. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Jul 1 2005, 04:40 PM
Post
#69
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Edge. Edit: Although that can't get you more successes than dice, so sorry. This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Jul 1 2005, 04:41 PM |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 1 2005, 05:10 PM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
actually, with exploding dice, it can.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 1 2005, 05:21 PM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Edge is a non-starter for me in this particular discussion unless one to six points goes a lot further than it appears to at first blush.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jul 1 2005, 11:12 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
Exploding dice is a mess. Particularly the self-igniting ones. They are just deadly to carry around. :P
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 2 2005, 12:05 AM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I think that is the crux of it, isn't it. Don't want to, or can't. Then you toss out some crap about not knowing anything about there being threshholds? SR3: GM: "Ok Eldritch, an unseen sniper takes a shot at you head." *rolls* "Hmmm, 4 successes. You recognize that pressure on your skull as the 270gr .300 Winchester Magnum slug from an indeterminante sniper rifle." Eldrich: "Crap, i put all my Combat Pool into shooting that little old lady that i mistook for an enemy in disguse. Plus i've taken Moderate wound and Serious wound. Given my Body 2 i guess i can't actually stage down enough to keep my head from becoming a 3D Picaso. And i've already spent my Hand of God with this character. I'm screwed." *tension mounts as Eldritch spends an hour building his new character, Strawman* |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 2 2005, 12:21 AM
Post
#74
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
wait a minute. you're throwing out all kinds of projections and what-ifs. your basic argument, as far as i can tell, is "what if it's really cool!"
but eldritch is the one using straw men? okay. i do not think that means what you think it means. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 2 2005, 01:03 AM
Post
#75
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Of course i'm saying "what if", and acknowledging there are speculations. However Eldrich is trying to -prove- that a fixed TN can be nothing but "broken" by throwing up bullsh!t senarios, while attempting to pretend that there aren't situations in SR3 where you are screwed before you even try to roll. Hell the Force 1 Inivisibility spell trick relied heavily on that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 19th August 2025 - 07:52 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.