 More news of Origins, yeah..I saw the good stuff |
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 Aug 6 2005, 07:38 PM
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#401
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67  |
To an extent, yeah. But one of the points I was trying to make is that the book is done. Gone to printers. There were changes made to it based on feedback. Continuing to press an agenda at this point, when its already gone to layout, is fairly pointless. All you can really do at this point is choose to buy or not to buy, and write a review. Which kinda needs the book first. Perspective is very important too. Postings on the Internet, especially from people who post a lot, can create a skewed perspective. Most of Shadowrun's customers, and especially the potential new customers, don't post here or read here. If one person posts one hundred times with their point, it doesn't mean they were ever going to buy one hundred copies of the book, even if the developers wrote it exactly the way that person wanted it to be. People tend to forget that when they get into the heat of the debate, that they are representing themselves, not really everyone else. Sometimes, one person can make a really sound argument, but it's mostly just a problem to them. Whereas maybe a majority of people don't have a problem with the same thing, and changing it to match that person's viewpoint could be detrimental or at least not worthwhile. And d20, for its flaws, is still the most successful system out there, by a massive margin. So that's something to keep in mind. Anyway, my points now run the risk of entering the repetitive area I mentioned earlier, so I'm going to catch myself. All I'm trying to say is that feedback was heard and some changes were definitely made over the game's development. Not everything everyone wanted, I'm sure, but developers have to fit their creative vision in there too. And at this point, it's done, so we all just have to wait and see and make our own choices and see how the masses react. I know I'm curious, myself, because I know that my personal viewpoint doesn't match everyones'. |
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Aug 6 2005, 08:22 PM
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#402
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Fair enough--I basically agree.
I'd just point out that if d20 has the largest market, it's not necessarily smart to compete head-to-head with it (as evidenced by the dieoff of many non-WotC d20 games that had only setting to distinguish themselves from each other and from WotC products). Handling number/power disparity is an area in which SR has traditionally been far superior to d20. Subtle (though not always realistic) distinctions between weapons is an area where d20 has typically outperformed. Crafting mechanics that are in some ways superior to d20 (and in few as possible ways vastly inferior) is a way to gain a niche and therefore a market. It's certainly not the only way, but it helps. |
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Aug 6 2005, 09:35 PM
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#403
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Whoah Buck, long time no see. :-) The 2nd part of the audio has been long delayed by actual work crunch. I'll see about getting some or all of the 2nd part online before I leave on my pre-GenCon mini-vacation. |
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Aug 7 2005, 02:08 AM
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#404
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
You know Synner, I am going to have some fun here...
I am going to see if I can recreate Ellery's logic process If you want to debate me please just state if an assumption is wrong of point out where a section of logic does not follow. you need not say what the actaul facts are when you tell me an assumptions is wrong (thus protecting your NDA) Assumption: The FAQs were not a bunch of lies and the material within them can be stated as 'fact' Assumption: The FanPro people are not a bunch of Wankers who will completely go against their stated goals for no good reason Assumption: The FanPro team are not mathematically incompetent. Fact: The new SR4 system uses a Fixed TN basis Fact: a Fixed TN basis produces a linear relationship between number of dice and number of successes Conclusion: Therefore SR4 has a linear relationship between dice rolled and successes ---------------------------- Grandfathered in data: SR4 has a linear relationship between dice rolled and successes Assumption: The fastest increase in dice rolled for spellcasting would be "Multiply dice by spell force" Assumption: Ellery was talking about resisted spells here Fact a "Multiply dice by spell force" formula would produce a 20% effectiveness improvement from force 5-6 or a 50% effect improvement from force 4 to 6 (Ellery already proved that using force as threshold merely means that force 5 is so devestating that force 6 is not necessary) Fact SR3 has a 100% effect increase from force 5 to 6 and a 200% increase from force 4 to 6 Conclusion: the power increase from force 4 to 6 in SR4 will be less dramatic than the force 5 to 6 in SR3 ----- Fact: FanPro have stated that they plan to symplify and streamline the SR ruleset Assumption: FanPro are not a bunch of Hypocrites Assumption: FanPro are not so stupid to believe that piling on "patch" rules to specific situations, is an example of streamlining Conclusion: Magic rules will follow the, already stated, mechanic. Therefore Magic will probably be opposed tests ----- Assumption: Most people have a small amount of powergamer inside them. This usually manifests in the form of a cost/benefit analysis during character creation Assumption: 1 essence point of Cyber will be at least as useful as it is in SR3 (If not then there is no way in Hell I am buying this game I am sick of 'due to years of research and development the technology became less effewctive'. If I want that, I will work for microsoft) Fact: it has been said at Origins that "Essence loss for magic will work as always" Assumption: "As always" means lose one essence, lose one magic Fact: Synner said that Magic 3 or 4 magicians will be common. Assumption: Synner was not talking out of his arse Fact: Force of spellcasting is limited to 2*magic Conclusion a: Magic 2 mages cast at force 4, magic 3 mages at force 6, and magic 4 mages cast at force 8 Conclusion b: since the difference of 2 force points is less than the 5-6 in SR3, and the Cyberware will be at least as useful, The cost benefit analysis for that essence worth of cyber will be considered favorable more often. Conclusion c: There will be an increase in the number of lightly cybered mages quod erat demonstrandum --- Now Synner if you would like to tell me which assumptions or facts are wrong, or prove a logical hole between fact/assumption and conclusion. I would be happy to hear from you |
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Aug 7 2005, 03:50 AM
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#405
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
You really should keep up with these things :) ANd heya Buck! How you been? Making GC this year? Adam already answered your question, so saves me the trouble of pretending I have a clue ;) Bull |
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Aug 7 2005, 04:06 AM
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#406
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
I simplified too much in my first post. That, or you take things way too literally, Ellery :) Anyways, I'm always interested in hearing what people think, and why. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here or on a couple dozen other mesage boards. But I've foud that 99% of the time, once the opening salvo's are fired, so to speak, that you're pretty much done. If your opening statements don't sway me or change my mind, chances are nothing else you say will. Same for most other people. The internet just ramps things up a bit, because it's a whole hell of a lot easier to get into a heated debate about something when you don't have to look that person in the eye. Plus, as I've said before, I find going round and round with someone to be a frustrating excercise in futility, and my time is better spent elsewhere, trying to be productive. Or at least levelling in Warcraft ;) Bull |
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Aug 7 2005, 05:36 AM
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#407
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Not bad, Kremlin. In the first section, your conclusion is not based on whether or not people at FanPro are mathematically incompetent, so you can drop that assumption. I wouldn't assume that "multiply dice by spell force" is necessarily the way in which force is used. There are a number of possiblities (cap on sucesses, automatic successes, number of points of damage, multiplier to range/speed, gives additional dice for success test, subtracts from armor, etc.), but in each case the conclusion is the same: at most, 5 to 6 is a 20% improvement. Also, since the mechanic for everything is "attribute + skill", it is very likely that there will be "magic + magic skill" tests (I forget whether this was confirmed at Origins), but here the effect is even less than 20% (depending on the skill). Also, at the time, Synner hadn't said that magic 3 or 4 mages would be typical. It had been widely reported that stats of 3 would be "average", however, and with assumptions about cost structure and so on based upon declared design goals, it's very likely that it won't be that expensive to be higher. It is thus safe to assume that at creation time there will be a fair number of magicians with over 3 magic.
Some of each, probably--you weren't stating an opening salvo yourself in the discussion (only in the metadiscussion), and you didn't really explain your reasons, so the literal/simplistic interpretation looked plausible. As explained here, it makes a lot more sense, and is something I'd only find slightly unrewarding.
After all, here we are past the opening salvo and I've learned something. |
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Aug 7 2005, 05:54 AM
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#408
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Ellery is a great conversationalist. Always rational, always clear, never starts "flaming". And the others involved here too. Really a great read. It is awesome when these things stick to the point and don't degenerate into name calling. All involved are to be congratulated, this is good stuff.
:twirl: |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:21 AM
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#409
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
I'm just getting back into SR and come back to dumpshock all of 4 days ago, and when I read about hackers, that was literally the first thing I wondered about... I had to find an active thread and get an answer. Sorry, I'll never do it again... for the next 2 hours :) . In anycase, d20 is successful because in doesn't have a niche setting like SR. It can be used for just about anything. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a better system. Many people don't like cyberpunk, and even of those that do, some don't like magic thrown into the mix. I personally like the SR3 rules better than d20, but I don't think SR will live and die by the rule system, but rather the environment it's set in and the rich backdrop that the books have always provided. Atleast I hope so anyway, and worst comes to worst no one says you HAVE to use SR4. But they should keep using d6 no matter what. Nothing makes me happier than exclaiming "I like ShadowRun because I like Yatzee!" |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:32 AM
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#410
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
I think SR3 rules are a lot more flexible than d20 rules, actually--SR3 already handles fantasy and technological settings quite well, for example. d20 is largely successful because of inertia (TSR/WotC produce the classic fantasy RPG setting). But it's also successful because products are well designed around the rules that they have, with an easy enough entry path, but lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of cool new toys and powerups to look forward to. The most popular MMORPGs do the same thing. It's a winning formula.
But they've already won with that formula. Unless they really drop the ball, their comptetitors are better off doing something else. |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:37 AM
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#411
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Which goes back to my question. It became very clear very early on that there are people who seem to have some sick aversion to just walking away as if their dumpshock honor is at stake if they back down, which is just silly. I was reading another thread recently about a couple of users who fell off the map, and wanted to know what made them so special as to have someone ask where they went. What amazes me is how some of them would go to great lengths to issue rebuttals and comments that a) missed the point, and b) served no actual purpose outside of defending said dumpshock honor like it's a precious commodity to be cherished. Who cares? |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:51 AM
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#412
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
assuming you're refering to my asking about CrimsonDude2.0 and Hanhsoo, I was just asking because CD was always ... interesting, and Hanhsoo was always helpful with questions, and I was curios. Whether it has anything to do with debating sr4, I'd say probably for CD, and no clue for Hanhsoo, for what it matters.
Once again assuming that's what you were referring to. |
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Aug 7 2005, 06:54 AM
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#413
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Yes, specifically referring to Crimsondude. Some of his posts in this forum were just shocking.
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Aug 7 2005, 08:32 AM
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#414
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
- Correct
- Likely but ultimately unproven. For instance exploding die continue to be part of the game, playing off Edge according to someone at Origins, and "we" do not know what other ideosyncracies might be involved in the use of an Att that's supposed to represent a character's intrinsic luck.
- Not proven. We still have to see how Edge functions and how it's dynamics affect the standard "linear relationship"... NOTE: I'm not saying it does, I'm saying you don't know. You don't know since all you can compare to is the way Karma Pool used to work. I will also note that more than one person has mentioned there is a direct trade in rule where dice can be traded for automatic successes.
- Not proven. We still have to see how Edge functions and how it's dynamics affect the standard "linear relationship"... NOTE: I'm not saying it does, I'm saying you don't know. You don't know since all you can compare to is the way Karma Pool used to work. I will also note that more than one person has mentioned there is a direct trade in rule where dice can be traded for automatic successes.
- Actually no.
- It's been more or less established that Ellery wasn't. Both by his posts and his responses to other posts. Ellery was to the best of my knowledge simply talking about how the 6-7 ideosyncracy in the SR3 system manifests in the differential between any Force 5 and Force 6 spells. Ellery?
- See Ellery's post above.
- Thresholds are one of several new elements to the system.
- Correct.
- Unproven. Mathematically it looks sound. In practice relative "importance" or more or less "dramatic" effect within the wider system it is currently unknown. Ellery has offered two hypothesis which would skew the "conclusions". I have a couple more, but regardless as long as those possibilities are open this "conclusion" is "inconclusive".
- There are no patches. IMHO The SR4 system is quite elegant and simple and any built in checks and balances are fluidly integrated in the core system.
- Yep. The goal is that all rules subsets use the same core mechanic.
- Have no idea where you're pulling getting this idea from. Feel free to produce a quote or deductive process - FanPro has announced Success Tests, Opposed Tests and Extended Tests at this point.
- Though the second assumption is more or less correct at face value it has been announced Bio will cost Essence. How that works has still to be announced but please take it into account.
- I think its safe to assume as much.
- Synner said they would be average but for the record I agree that "common" fits the bill too.
- Synner tends not to since his mouth is at the other end of his body.
- Yep, someone said that at Origins.
-Okay, a couple of considerations here which I've pointed out several times but have gone ignored. Please note my multiple references to how the rest of the Magic system functions. While Force is indeed capped 2*Magic, other facts affect this conclusion:
No matter how you paint it any and all these factors (particularly the first) will directly affect your "conclusion" above.
- Contingent on the fact that Drain continues to be Physical when Force exceeds magic and how well Drain can be resisted...
- Unproven. Just to make it clear how unknowns could affect this equation, let's assume (strictly for the sake of argument, please do not infer anything from this) that the overall SR4 Magic system (ie.Spell casting mechanic, skill breakup, Spell Resistance, staged Threshold-effects, etc) made low Force spells considerably less effective than they were in SR3. I'm sure you would concede that would make a magician limited to Magic 2 (Max Force 2 w/ Stun Drain, Max Force 4 w/ Physical Drain) significantly less appealing even if all the "conclusions" above held out... this is what I mean about the dangers of speculating without taking into account other systemic elements. And this is only one possibility amongst many still open. |
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Aug 7 2005, 09:56 AM
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#415
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Even with exploding dice, the expected number of hits scale linearly with the number of dice. It's just 0.4 hits/die instead of 0.333... hits/die.
Other than that, the posts are getting frightfully long and it's frightfully late, so I'm out for now. |
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Aug 7 2005, 02:02 PM
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#416
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-April 05 From: France Member No.: 7,343 |
Let's stick to important issue.
Bull thanks for the explanation, I always wanted to have a image put on the sound of your voice. I hope for your years won't pass by too quickly for you, life of orcs is fast but short ! |
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Aug 7 2005, 05:02 PM
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#417
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Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 6-August 05 Member No.: 7,540 |
Hey Bull and Adam, I'm actually doing well, I got laid off this summer - things had become so bad that my stress levels have actually improved by being unemployed. GenCon is a longshot; money is tight and I need to focus on the job search - but I've got it in the back of my head to just go anyway... Back on topic, I've been running a D&D game since 3.0 was released - we're still having a great time, but 5 years is longer than I've run any single system and it's time to try something new. I'm very excited about 3 'new' games that are releasing this summer (I say 'new' because they are all revisions to systems for games which I've run before): WFRPv2, Deadlands:Reloaded, and SR 4. I'm reading these boards (and checking the SR homepage for that audio :) ) trying to glean as much info as I can in advance. Although I will certainly not make a decision until I've purchased and read SR 4, I'm thirsty for any info I can get in advance. |
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Aug 7 2005, 07:54 PM
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#418
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Synner I will concede the point about edge... I had overlooked it due to the references to it being 'like karma pool' and 'an advantage for non cybered mundanes' But exploding dice do not make the effect non linear (my years of Earthdawn showed me that)
as to the magic will be opposed tests i was working from grandfathered assumptions logic goes like this. It was mentioned in origins thread that combat is opposed tests Most of the spells that need High force now are the combat spells and other 'resisted' spells... many other spells just benefit from higher force, rather than need it Streamlined system with universal mechanic therefore, magic combat will use same style of tests as combat therefore combat magic will use opposed tests... as would most resisted magic spells since i was working with the grandfathered assumption that we were talking about the resisted spells (the ones that most need the force 6 thing in SR3)
if you accept the powergamer assumption mentioned earlier and also note that bioware already caused pseudo essence loss for the purposes of magic.. hence their now costing essence is no big change for the mage then i would challenge that conclusion C is at the same contingent status as conclusion B: If you want to claim that there are a very small proportion of players (both current SR and prospective converts) with a hint or more of powergamer in them... then I must ask can i join your games... please? OTOH Your point about the possible reduction in effectiveness of low force spells and the making of drain to be harder to resist... (as to the low force spells being less effective I can see several ways to do it) was a very good one... thank you for sharing it. Now i will wonder how such a thing could happen (not saying it can't... working on the various possibilities)[QUOTE] |
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Aug 7 2005, 09:29 PM
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#419
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'm catching a plane in a few hours for a three week vacation away from the computer (and yes that means I will be missing out on the chaos after the SR4 launch), and I really don't have the time to give you a full answer. What I meant to do was provide food for thought.
There is a significant difference between Bioware causing pseudo-essence loss and it figuring directly into total Essence loss for the purposes of Magic rating in SR4. Without more information about how SR4 handles it this point will remain unclear. But regardless, I would submit that bioware now costing Essence is a big change given what is already known of the Magic cap, the new bar on Drain going Physical, and the break up of magical skills (not to mention unknowns such as how Force factors into spell casting and how easy/hard Spell Resistance is) under the new system. |
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Aug 8 2005, 03:47 AM
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#420
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
not really... when the discussion is based on whether mages will get implants and accept the loss of magic that comes with it the difference between pseudo essence loss and actual essence loss is minimal It is a big change, sure... note my opinion on it earlier, I fully expect that if anyone in my local SR groups decides we change to SR4 to retire at least 75% or my street samurai |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 24th November 2024 - 04:54 PM |
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