the (r) in making weapons and Conceal, FCU cost removes conceal penalty? Options

[BlackSmith]

lets say i put range finder in my weapon and pay the FCU ,25.
do i still get the conceal penalty?

if i do, why should i ever put any additions to my weapon and pay FCU from it?
i mean, what's the point?

[Arethusa]

First, no, you don't. It's integral. Second, ditch the firearms creation rules because they're absolutely ridiculous. Just put something together that seems sane and get your GM to vet it.

[FlakJacket]

Use spud's Firearms Creation Guidelines. Hell of a lot better IMO. :)

[Raptor1033]

so how come spud's rules don't allow you to add modifications to shotgun stocks and grips? rather odd in my eyes
/edit/ and on the same note, why not an under mod if the shotgun isn't pump action? and why can't you have a telescoping stock with shock pads on the ends? /edit/

[Tziluthi]

Well, if the concealablility penalty is what your problems is, then you might be glad to know that rangefinders don't have one. That said, the CC firearm design rules suck the fat one.

[Morphling The Pr...]

I don't like the way people poo-poo the creation rules in the CC. They aren't fabulous or kind, no. But I'm pretty sure they were meant to be for weapon techs building guns from kits, bits and parts of other guns. They aren't meant to be the ways to find the cost and potentials of precisely engineered weaponry. I suppose for new 'off the rack' weapons should just be conjured at GM will, or with the alternate rules by kind runners, like Peter Millholland.

Just my $.02. Maybe I'm just too kind.

[BlackSmith]

[Rajaat99]

I have no prolem with the rules in Cannon Companion. I've made a bunch of guns with it and my players love them. The only thing, is that I use The Shadowrun Supplemental's firearm prices, the sensible way when designing a "mass-market" gun.
The only proplem I have with the CC rules is, more options. I want more options.
By the way FlakJacket, your link doesn't work.

The reference is on page 80 in the CC, "Space Restrictions".
"Modifications made to a firearm take up not only internal space, as represented by their FCU cost, but also mounting space."
Also on page 74: "FCU: Firearm construction units are abstract units that determine how much internal space the firearm offers to accommodate design options and modifications." Internal Space means it's internal.

[252]

First: Personally I like the Cannon Companion Gun Generating Rules.

It's hard to be a munchkin with them, which I think is a great thing.

The next thing is can you put more then one item on a mount of their both internal?

Just wondering what's other peoples ideas on this concept is. (I am not a gun designer and I have never used a gun so I have no idea about these things.)

Just want to be as accurate to a real piece of weaponry as possible.

2:52:16
Try to do it faster, I dare ya!

[mfb]

hahah. it's hard to play munchkin with the CC rules? hoooo.

that said, it's just as easy to play munchkin with spud's rules. the problem isn't really the rules--or, rather, there isn't really a problem. you can be a munchkin with any ruleset.

[Rajaat99]

[Arethusa]

[hobgoblin]

sane in real world context or SR context? remeber that while they look the same they are not so...

[Arethusa]

The rules fail absolutely in real life, but, then again, so do all of SR's guns, independant of the rules. The difference is that the gun creation rules are miserable failures even within the context of Shadowrun.

[252]

And if they are such great failures can you please go on. So that I might be able to make a decently realistic weapon. I mean, I know I have never shot a gun. I am sure that most of the movie and TV crap is just that totally fictional. So please I invite you to go on with what a realistic gun would be like. Try any type, Pistol, to an Assault Cannon.

[Arethusa]

Assuming you aren't up for completely rewriting Shadowrun's combat system, or, hell, happen to like it, there's no point in trying to come up with a single realistic weapon to stick it into Shadowrun next to a ton of of stuff that defies physics, intelligence, and/or sensibility. If you do feel like ditching canon combat, give Raygun's rules a shot. If not, I suggest you just look at something that's in the same class as the weapon you want to put together and work from there. Sensible judgement beats the crap out of rules any day.

I have a large set of semirealistic weapons that mesh with the canon stuff lying around. Still needs a bunch of flavor text writing, but I might as well get that done and post it here some time in the next few days to give you and idea of what I mean.

[hobgoblin]

the big problem is that whilesr tryeds to be realistic it allso tryes to be fun, and those two dont allways mix. would it be fun to have rules for gravity effect on longe range shots and so on? having to calculate the diffrence in effect when adding say 5 cm to the barrel of the gun? i say no, but if you dont like the rules then dont use them (i have seen people doing a total covnert on games like D&D + others so)...

but this is realy the wrong thread to discuss ones views, the opening was a question about how the rules work, not about finding some alternate rules system...

[BlackSmith]

[Finbar]

How to abuse it?

You can make an Assault Rifle with underbarrel Grenade Launcher, with a conceal of 9, go look up what else has a conceal of 9

[Morphling The Pr...]

[Modesitt]

Here's a few sample guns that are better than anything in the book

Frame: Shotgun(130 DP)
Ammo loading(Clip): +10 DP, -1 Conceal
Increased Power 2: +160 DP, +.5 weight, -.5 FCU
Weight Decrease 6: +30 DP, -1.5 weight
Extended clip 30: +60 DP

The end result: 1,950 nuyen, BUT, it's superior to any non-burst firing shotgun in the books. Why? It's the only clip-firing shotgun that has a base power of 10. About twice as expensive as a standard shotgun, but any decently-paid shadowrunner won't even blink at it. For something that's actually better than anything else in the books shotgun-wise, slap on Burst Fire for another 500 nuyen. There are no other shotguns in the books that are burst firing, have a clip(A definite plus over manual), and have a power of 10. It may have a conceal of 2, but you don't buy this shotgun for concealabilith or subtly, you buy it for the ability to kill other people. You can add a Gas Vent IV to the barrel, personalize the grip, and add shockpads to get the 6 RC you need. If you like, you can remove the extended clip portion and just add it after market because it wont be subject to Street Index. You'll also may want to use add the Extended Clip modification to it after market, since after market it isn't subject to street index but you also have to pay someone to add it.


Frame: Sporting Rifle(125 DP)
Ammo loading(Clip): +10 DP, -1 conceal
Firing Mode: SA/BF, +100 DP,
Increased power 2: +160 DP, +.5 weight, -.5 FCU
Weight Decrease 6: +30 DP, -1.5 weight
Extended clip 30: +60 DP

Looks an awful lot like that first one, doesn't it? That's because the principle of the same, only it's arguably worse because of the much greater range and because there are TWO burst firing sporting rifles in the books and they're both in the modular gun designs. There's simply no excuse to ever use any sporting rifle unless money is very important.

Have I made my point yet?

A rule should be implemented if it adds more options to what is optimal to do. For example, if a certain gun is overpowered to the point that everyone uses it to the exclusion of other guns, it should probably be nerfed. If a certain gun is never used, it could probably use a power up UNLESS it's just that it's very specialized but IS very good at whatever it's specialized in. For example, heavy pistols are fairly balanced against one another. Some are exceptionally specialized, but almost all of them have some use. The CC weapon creation rules are NOT good because they greatly limit the weapons you can maybe choose. Every shotgun will be the same because you CAN make the perfect shotgun, every assault rifle will be the same because you CAN make the perfect assault rifle.

You can preach all you want about "That's a very distinctive gun! You'll be recognized by it!" or any other argument but it's pointless. That argument is wrong because if there's a perfect shotgun, every shadowrunner under the sun will use it. It's not like FASA didn't anticipate people making guns better than anything in the book. Their Ares Thunderer had to have arbitrary story limitiations added in order to be kind of balanced, along with having a heavy street index in order to get approved by that GM. If you use the rules as written without applying more limitations to the guns, they WILL be broken and everyone WILL use the same gun eventually. Arbitrairily assigning statistics to guns and comparing them to other guns is more likely to get you a balanced weapon than the CC rules.

[Morphling The Pr...]

[BlackSmith]

assult rifle with grenader and conceal 9?
get real. CC rules wont alllow it.

Internal magazine +1
bullpup +2
reduced barrel +2 (We house rule that reduced barrel increases the weapons conceal equal to (frames conseal x 1,5) but it also halves the range)

total of +5.

uuh.
now you got assult rifle that has magazine capacity of 1 and cabale of SA/BF/FA.

~

my character(s) usualy uses two or three custom weapons.
one sporting rifle that is cabable for burst fire and has conceal -2 (aka none) OR sporting rifle that has conceal 5.
Sniper rifle that has huge range and packs a best puch in the game with compleatly ceramic and easy break down + top on that all the scopes you can get with guncam.
Heavy pistol that is compleatly ceramic and packs a smart2 with voice activation.

ok now you say that they all are bad (in one way or another.) BUT, there is one point of custom made weapons.
they are unique.
see the guns in the books are mass produced weapons.
if someone kills bob the night clerk with remington the cops can't do nothing else but hope they get a cross the same ballistics some other place and with some gun that matches to it.

you go shooting around barrels all red with that your unique weapon of yours and you got few major problems.
1. when you need ammo, you have to custom order it and that is never easy. specialy without SIN.
2. leave even one shell at the crime scene and the cops can track you down. if you got a SIN they come to your door. if you dont have, they might still com trough your door. gunsmiths are not that lojal. specialy if money talks.
3. the ballisitics has it Sooooooo Easy to pin point you weapon among all the hundre... eh one custom made weapon(s) that is not registered this side of the sea. best of all to them if your gun IS registered so they can walk right in and take balistics from it.
4. having a custom weapon Always draws atention when you pull it out. you are always rembered (months at least) and sometimes you are bombed with Q's about it. best of all some, gun freaks might even steal it from you.

sure there are ways to get around these points.
1. use explosive or disintigrating ammo and pray that they all break down.
2. use caseless ammo and make your own ammo.
3. same as 1 and dont register your gun at any place.
4. this one is easy. don't use it.
but then the weapon comes rapidly more trouble than packing a one mass produced weapon.

so you can make any damn combination with CC and you get balanced weapon.

sure my sniper rifle (H-K 1667 Mes.Sa.N.ger) has more options, packs a better punch and much better range than Barret but it also costs 3-4 times more than barret and has higher availability plus if cops would get their hands on it they would have the murder weapon for over hundred sniper hits.
and when gun starts to cost more than 100k DOES make a deal.
now you might wonder how do i get so high prices? look my point 3 and you figure it out.

(i dont mind continuing this discussion here. i got my answers already. thanks again Rajaat99)

[mfb]

i don't see anything really wrong with giving a sporting rifle BF. in real life, they're called battle rifles--there's no real hardline division between a battle rifle and an assault rifle (stupid insane SR bullshit skills), but a battle rifle generally chambers a higher-power round, like a 7.62 as opposed to the 5.56 or 5.45.

[BlackSmith]

well the real life difference is that when you dodge to the dirt with your (hutting) rifle, the game is over.
on the other hand assult rifle will be spiting water, sand, dirt but still kicking like a dream.

and (sporting) rifles are not costructed to handle FA while Assault rifles are.
it is compleatly OK to have in BR in a (sprotting) rifle or a shotgun. they recoil is just awfull but manigable. Assault Rifles are build to handle the recoil and the stress.

and like you self said. Assult rifles pack a smaller bullets while (sportting) rifles use Bigger Punch ammo.

thus the divining (sporting) rifles and Assault Rifles has solid grounds.