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 the (r) in making weapons and Conceal, FCU cost removes conceal penalty? |
 Oct 6 2003, 03:40 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166  |
The concealability is the most important thing for my players. They sacrifice power for concealability all the time. You obviously don't. That's just one example how not all Shadowrunners will take the "same gun". I've seen a few home-made rules for designing guns and the CC is the best ones I've seen. |
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Oct 6 2003, 07:10 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Rhode Island Member No.: 5,588 |
Well, just because you customize or build a gun, that doesn't mean you are changing the caliber to an otherwise non-existant one. Frankly, for convienience and anonimity, I'd assume people would build them to handle the standard ammo for the gun type. (In SR, all guns of the same type can share ammo anyway, so it's less realistic, but more pragmatic in a lot of ways, in game and out.) Of course, distinctive style might be a nice way to interpet a new caliber of gun... but without a facility (MAYBE a shop) you probably aren't going to invent a new breadth of ammunition. In my humble opinion, that is. I don't understand the precise reality of it, but it seems unlikely to me. |
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Oct 6 2003, 08:31 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 15-February 03 From: Europe, Finland, Turku & Åbo Member No.: 4,101 |
no but the ballistics are compleatly unique. you can't say that it has been shot from certain type of gun by just looking the wounds/holes in the wall.
making a new caliber ammo is not hard. finding shells, fiting chamber and pipe is.
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Oct 6 2003, 09:05 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
It's not just that the CC rules are weird in terms of balance, so much as they produce guns that shouldn't physically be able to exist. It's easy to create a 30-round assault rifle that's smaller (or at least more concealable) than most light pistols. If you can figure out how to fit 30 assault rifle rounds and the mechanism of the rifle itself in that amount of space, more power to you.
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Oct 6 2003, 09:14 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 15-February 03 From: Europe, Finland, Turku & Åbo Member No.: 4,101 |
...and some numbers?
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Oct 6 2003, 10:11 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
There is a chance that I screwed this up somehow, since this is my first time using the CC rules, but I don't believe I have. Start with the base assault rifle frame. Conceal 3, Ammo Cap 30, FCU 3. Take the barrel reduction option (-.5 FCU, + 2 conceal.) Take the Bullpup Config option (-.5 FCU, +2 conceal). Neither option, as far as I can tell, affects the ammo capacity of the gun.
3 conceal base + 2 for reduced barrel + 2 for bullpupping = 7. 3 FCU - .5 for reduced barrel -.5 for bullpupping = 2. You can do whatever you want with those 2 FCU. I don't personally care, since a 30-round assault rifle that's smaller than most pistols is surreal enough for me; if someone else wants to make it even more insane, go ahead. |
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Oct 7 2003, 03:54 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
I repeat: You do not buy THIS gun for concealability. If you want a more conealable shotgun, the Spas-22 with a sawed off barrel is closer to what you want and it's a stock gun. You can get 6 conceal out of it. In fact, as a general rule you DON'T buy shotguns for concealability. You buy a gun that is genuninely concealable for that purpose.
He's wrong on that point, but you can make a burst firing shotgun with a 50-shot clip that has a conceal of 8. I have...issues with that. But the Assault Rifle with a grenade launcher and 9 conceal can't exist UNLESS he means with a long coat.
I'm not proclaiming the burst fire on a sporting rifle is inherently overpowered compared to all other weapons. I'm pointing out that a 9S burst-firing sporting rifle is simply inherently superior to any other sporting rifle for raw killing power since there AREN'T any with 9S and burst fire. There's at least one stock sniper rifle design that does more damage base. It's not like it eats up all of it's FCU doing that either, you've got plenty of space for things like Improved Concealability. For future reference, sporting rifles have normal recoil, not double uncompensated.
Please read what I said before: If a 'unique' gun design is better than any other gun design of the same class, EVERYONE is going to get one eventually and by 'everyone' I mean NPCs. It WONT be unique because it has been copied to death.
Absolutely incorrect. In Shadowrun, all guns of the same class(Heavy pistol, sporting rifle, assault rifle) use the exact same ammunition unless it is explicitly noted otherwise, ie the Barret Model 121. You can take bullets from my AK-97 and use them in your Ares HVAR, you can take flechettes from my Ares Predator and load them into your ares viper sliver gun. You may have a case for the clip, but all clips also have the same availability and cost regardless of what gun they fit.
Like you point out below, EVERY gun in Shadowrun is available in a caseless variety at no extra charge. You can have a caseless pump action shotgun, a caseless heavy machine gun, minigun, whatever.
Products that are just plain Better than the competition can exist. I've no issue with them existing. The main issue is that, as a general rule, the weapons are balanced against one another. Deciding whether to use an Ares Predator, Browning Max Power or some other heavy pistol is an actual decision without the CC rules. Why would the corps have to make perfect guns to the exclusion of cheap guns? There is certainly a market for ultra high end firearms, if not the military and legit security firms than under the table bargains with Shadowrunners. There would still exist a market for cheap guns. There's also a market for potato chips, but we don't list 20 different varietys of potato chips in the main book in spite of the fact htat no one will ever use them just because we htink we need potato chips and the world will end if there are not enough varietys of potato chip.
The shotgun design I suggested had room for everything you just listed. More concealment, a biometric safety, ceramic construction, and a secondary weapon system. You would need, at most, 4 or 5 designs for each frame to get a weapon for everyone. A completely unconcealable gun with lots of power, a very concealable gun, and 2 or 3 more specialized versions. Part of what I like about Shadowrun is the sheer VARIETY of weapons and cybernetics and spells and oh so much more. The CC system was implemented probably under the idea of letting people customize their guns even more - but in the process, they effectively removed almost every gun they had ever designed from the game. Money may be an issue in cases of corps cutting corners, but for the majority of shadowrunners, the type of poeple who buy ammo in lots of 38746587432, keep an assault cannon in the garage, a LAW under their bed and a dead body in the trunk of their car, paying a few thousand nuyen for a gun is practically chump change. Their gun is used often and having the best they can get is worth it. I'm ignoring what may be left of your post but not to insult you, more that we got sidetracked on the main point. I pointed out in the previous paragraph that the intent was probably to create more variety, but instead they killed it. You had to make genuine decisions before hte CC rules on what gun you wanted to use. While some were clearly superior to most in their class for most purposes, for example the Ares Alpha, all of them had SOMETHING keeping them kind of balanced or at least a reason not to use them. The Ares Predator is heavier, has a lower conceal, and a larger clip than the Browning Max Power. Both have a purpose. But what if you could have a gun that weighed less than the browning, had a clip bigger than the Ares Predator, and the concealability of the browning? That gun would cost LESS than the Browning and yet be better than either by the CC rules. Variety is the spice of life. In D&D, people often don't like playing the same class as someone else because they don't want to step on their toes or get their toes stepped on. Some classes, like the Fighter, have so much variety that you can have multiple fighters without any overlap between them. The same holds true in Shadowrun, where Mage's will avoid some of the same spells other people have(Exceptions for stuff like Heal), shamans will avoid taking the same totem, street sammys avoid unusual cyberware that other people already have(Example, an eye datajack), and people avoid choosing the same metatype as other people. Being the second minotaur in a party isn't near as special or unique as being the only one. These are just general rules. People like being different and special. Making it so everyone can have all the best features of every gun they ever liked cuts into it. Having YOUR heavy pistol do 10M or be made entirely of ceramics or have recoil compensation is no longer special because anyone can have a gun that does 10M, be made entirely of ceramics, and recoil compensation all at once. The point of this is screw the CC rules, arbitrairily assign statistics and compare them to other guns. Is it simply better than another gun without it being an upgrade, ie Ares Predator II and not have a commensurate price tag? Do you like each gun being a little different from all the others and sometimes having features no other gun has? Then see the first sentence of this paragraph. |
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Oct 7 2003, 04:06 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
You didn't get my point. *Sigh* Whatever. I see nobody is going to change their minds on their feelings towards the CC rules. Some like them some don't. If you haven't seen any of them, check them ALL out. That's my opinion. |
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Oct 7 2003, 04:21 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 15-February 03 From: Europe, Finland, Turku & Åbo Member No.: 4,101 |
except. it is not mass produced thus it has higher availability. why it is not? not enough profit for the corps.
no there is no BR sporting rifles because the yare DESIGNED to have SA mode. there is no assault rifles that have only SA as a fire mode. yes it is possible to have other modes but they are something they are not DESIGNED to do. and what is your point about sniper rifles? yes in game terms they have but ever shot a rifle with BR mode? small caliber weapons (like ARifles) dont break your shoulder while leting a FA, while a dear rifle breaks your should certanly if you try soemthing like FA.
like mentioned earlier. as long it is not in the mass production it is a hand made, custom weapon thus not cost effective. sure every NPC might have 9S sportting rifle but you tell me why they pay much more for a hunting rifle that that they use for combat while they could get a AR cheaper?
well pardon but you should use your eyes. look at ammo section at availability part. "same as weapon". so sure you can use but if you want to use ammo to Your gun you have to beat it avail.
yes BUT caseless ammo dont mix in cased ammo.
and in old info it costed 20% more. |
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Oct 7 2003, 05:16 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 775 |
This is a munchy gun I designed when I was
bored one day. I wanted to see what the most extreme handgun replacement was that the system would allow. :cyber: 130 Base Shotgun Frame F: FCU, C: Conc, W: Wight, RC: Recoil Comp, P: Power. 10 Ammo loading Clip (C -1) 8 Barrel Reduction (F -.5, W -.25 C +2) 25 Bullpup (F -.5, C +2, RC 1) 100 Firing Mode SA/BF (F -1, W +.5) 25 Heavy Barrel (F -.25, W +.5, RC 1) 40 Improved FCU 4 (F +1) 160 Increased Power 2 (F -.5, W + .5, P +2) 30 Weight Decrease 6 (W -1.5) Base Gun: Damage 10S (+2) Fire Modes SA/BF Conceal 6 (-1. +2, +2) Weight 4.25 (-.25, +.5, +.5, +.5, -1.5) Ammo Cap 4© Mounts Barrel, Top, Under Internal RC 2 FCU 0.75 DPV 528 add in some more goodies! 195 Smartlink 2 (F -.5 W +.25) 92 Extended Clip +46 Rounds (= 50 Rounds) 25 Personalized Grip (RC -1) and we end up with :eek: Damage 10S Fire Modes SA/BF Conceal 6 Weight 4.5 Ammo Cap 50 © Mounts Barrel, Top, Under Internal RC 3 FCU .25 DPV 840 = 4200 nuyen Internal Smartgun 2 built in Choke must be 6 or less at all times All ranges -10%, which is still better then a heavy pistol. and this still leaves all mounts unused and an additional .25 FCU for more goodies depending on your style/needs. Only disadvantage is it has a high weight for a Heavy Pistol replacement and the price. It bursts for 13D and is easier to hide then an Ares Predator. Seems broken to me. :( But with the correct GM oversight, I think it can give players a few nice options. |
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Oct 7 2003, 11:39 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Did you read the example gun they gave us, the Ares Thunderer? It has an availability of 8 and is a failed ares prototype. A CANCELLED project, which has the same availability as the Spas-22, a MAW launcher and the Ares Alpha. Your argument on that front isn't looking too good.
If there are no burst fire sporting rifles becaues they are designed to have SA mode, then why is it on the list of available firing modes for a sporting rifle in the CC?
I brought them up because they're one of the closest comparable guns to sporting rifles. A burst firing sports rifle is close or, in some cases, statistically superior to a sniper rifle.
Bringing up realism when you are discussing pure game mechanics is bad form. As far as the game is concerned, a sporting rifle, an assault rifle, a heavy pistol, and a submachine gun firing on burst fire have the exact same kick. Arguably, one could say the fact that an SMG and an assault rifle can have more RC built in than a sporting rifle or heavy pistol represents this, but there are exactly 6 guns in Shadowrun that actually have built in RC that doesn't come solely from barrel mods or a folding stock. Those guns are the 5-7C, the savalette guardian, the Ares Alpha, and the 3 high-velocity guns.
Perhaps they are. They certainly don't seem to be any harder to come by than standard weapons. The Ares Thunderer has an availability of 8, equal to that of the Spas-22. Pretty good for a failed Ares experiment that wasn't deemed cost effective. The availability time may be quite long, but it's not that bad really. Unless you're replacing your gun every run, you can conceivably replace it anytime it gets destroyed or just have a spare one of it on your gun rack.
Wannabe snipers looking for an alternative to pricier sniper rifles? Lacking the Assault Rifles skill? They actually are a hunter and just buying one gun that you can hunt animals and humans with is cheaper than one for each? For an assault rifle to genuinely exceed the 12D of a burst fireing sporting rifle it would need to fire a 6-round full auto burst(3 rounds gets you to 11S, 4 to 12S, 6 to 14D). The sporting rifle could pull that 12D off twice per round if the user liked. Sporting rifles also have a longer range than any assault rifle.
Maybe you've got some really screwed up version of the main book, but mine lists an availability rating for every single type of ammo. Like Regular ammo is 2/24 hours. Pg 281 of the BBB for the ammo listing. It's only for the Legality of ammunition that it says "As Weapon". Note that that is rather stupid, in that the legality of ammunition is up in the air if it isn't in a gun or loaded in a clip. Whether my shotgun slogs are legal or not depends on whether I plan to load them in my Remington 990 or Spas-22, in spite of the fact that they could be loaded in either gun without the ammunitinn actually changing. Also read page 279, they explicitly state that any sort of ammunition can be swapped between weapons of the same class. The Ares HVAR, the AK-97, and Colt M-23 all use the exact same ammunition if they're all caseless or cased, as the case may be.
Why does it matter that 'caseless ammo dont mix in cased ammo'? The only type of ammo that does mix in other types are tracers. As for the old info - It's old info. It is, again, explicitly stated otherwise. Pg 15 of the CC, second paragraph. Also on Pg 276 of the BBB, right column, first paragraph. Ammo cost is the same for both types and you can get a caseless gun at no extra charge. I just want to know this - Are you trying to argue that the rules for gun creation and design are completely balanced? |
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 Oct 8 2003, 12:33 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 119 Joined: 15-February 03 From: Europe, Finland, Turku & Åbo Member No.: 4,101 |
yes, it has availability of 8, no it is not mass production gun. like you self said, it is canceled gun project and like CC says swining it around gets extra atention. look at my last note.
Because it is POSSIBLE to make it have BR also but it is NOt DESIGNED to hande high ROF. get it? not all cars have autogears, because they are not DESIGNED to driven with automatic gears but instead manualy, but it is POSSIBLE to get them with autogear also but that costs you more.
try to see one point. the guns are categoriced for their purpose. not by their damage codes.
a bad form? in to discussion of game mechanics that is based on realism? hey, we are not talking about magic. and assault rifles DO accept more RC than other guns short of xMG's, IN game mechanics.
no your wrong. first you desing the gun, GM gives it a beckground if needed and gives it a availability. NOT the other way around. if you are geting a mass produced weapon (out of the book) first you look the avail and then the accessories and price. no GM involved.
Wannabee would get a real sniper preaty soon. Characters lacking something practice to get more skill to use the gun. Hunter would need registered weapon for that one or he might run in trouble rapidly. AR can handle FA while SR does not. if you are looking to fire only burst and high damage, then BR cabable SR is you choice. if your looking a weapon that can handle SA/BR/FA, adapt in many situations and be cost effective, assault riffle is your choice.
seems so. well the rules suck big time at that part. gladly i got some bad version.
no shit? this is what i have trying to tell you the last two posts.
because you put a caseless ammo in cased ammo using rifle, it does not iginate, fit in to the chamber or it jams. works both ways. CC at the part where your building your weapon, last page.
yes, but seems that you can't see why.
and i have a vagiue idea why you don't see. you got these D&D-sunglasses on. "if the Core book does not say it, it is groundless no mater what DM says". CC are compleatly balanced when you remeber that GM has the final touch of the weapons avail, St- index and possible other edges/flavs. in D&D you can take the magic item creation rules and make god killer EQ without any fuzz from DM. in SR you can make that 13D ares Thunderer BUT it has some social drawbacks too, unlike in D&D. in D&D you can walk in to kings chabmer with your +10 sword and +10 fullplates and nothing hapens. "it is not in the books". while in SR you get shot, killed and shot ones more by Knight Errand because of your wroong coloured jacket. so, im saying you got D&D-Glases on and that the CC weapon creation rules are balanced as long the GM is awake. |
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Oct 8 2003, 04:42 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I hope and pray that English is not your first language, but even if it is not, that is no excuse fot the amount of stupidity and vitriol you've liberally dumped into your posts. And so I would like to make a number of points that you seem to have overlooked:
The gun creation rules are not purely for custom smithing jobs, but for any gun, mass produced or no. Just because the one example given in the book is a failed prototype does not mean all guns created with the rules are failed prototypes. The bit about the gun being good for grabbing attention is not covered in the rules, and is really more for roleplaying purposes than anything else.
Your point about hunting rifles not being designed for burst fire is idiotic. You can make them burst. There are no weapon reliability rules. I can take the thing to a rnage and fire 2,000 bursts through it without a single problem. How it is designed has nothing to do with it.
Believe it or not, damage codes are a part of weapon functionality. In this case, we're talking about a smaller, cheaper rifle being given an ability that allows it to statistically outperform a much larger, more expensive, and more specialized piece of hardware.
Bad form or not, the realism points you mentioned we also flat out wrong at various points. And, it is worth pointing out that realism has no place is a very large amount of the Shadowrun gun rules. To some degree, yes, we are talkinga bout magic.
The GM does not necessarily assign background and availability. In fact, I would say this really belongs to the designer and the GM should vet the entire package. Moreover, you missed his point: a custom designed gun can be very cost effective for a runner. To be fair, though, anything that keeps your ass alive and allows you to do your job and still make a worthwhile profit, for a runner, is cost effective, and the only real place you'd need to worry about cheaper weapons and the like is when outfitting, for example, an army. He did have a point, though: for a failed prototype, it was ridiculously easy to get ahold of. And that's just one of the problems with the CC rules.
But his point is that a hunting rifle that can burst easily outperforms an assault rifle, and, with the right recoil compensation— which is quite easy to get— can snipe with almost the same effectiveness as a Barrett 121. The difference between 12D and 14D is really not that significant, after all. Is it as flexible as an assault rifle? Not quite. But when the performance gap is this wide and the price this low, who cares?
To be honest, I couldn't tell through all of your posts either. You earlier claimed that you'd need to order custom ammo when you ran out of stuff to shoot in your custom gun. Outside of something like the Barrett 121, this is very much not the case: all sporting rifles use the same ammunition, custom made or not, etc.
He does not have 'DnD sunglesses' on. Moreover, DnD does not necessarily lack social ramifications for whatever; it's just less socially oriented. But, in any case, your assumption that the rules are fine so long as the GM is awake is incredibly asinine and absurd. Any rule set is fine as long as the GM intervene's via GM fiat whenever the rules get out of hand, but the problem with the CC rules is that they get out of hand almost constantly. Conceal 7 assault rifles and conceal 6 shotguns with 50 round mags? No amount of GM balancing is going to make either of those examples any less retarded, and they are more the norm than exception. Any ruleset that allows for that is a complete waste of time. I've used the CC rules and they are not only easy to abuse; they're difficult to use sanely. Modesitt's right: best route is to screw the CC rules and just put something together that looks sane. If the GM vets it, it's in. |
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Oct 9 2003, 04:34 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I think I'll instate the 20% more for caseless ammo rule in my game. I like that.
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