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 London Boom, 7/7-05 Another date to remember? |
 Jul 8 2005, 01:14 PM
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#76
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
I disagree. And I am not an American. You cannot apply democratic ideals to combat the lowest common denominator of human behavior and expect to win. If fear is what the enemy wish to create, then let us see how they like being paid with their own coin. From I live, the American government did not turn its back on democratic values. They finally realised that democratic values have inadequate protection. War is nothing more than sanctioned murder. In war, there are no rules. If you wish to play by the rules, you might win only if your enemy agrees to play by the same rules. In the war on terror, you think the terrorists are going to play by your civilised rules? Are you that naive? :vegm: I am not justifying murder. I am saying it is not only necessary but will be crucial if democracy is to survive. Democracy is the sheep. Terror is the wolf and Gitmo (as an example) is the sheepdog. Just because the sheepdog and the wolf are related, is the shepard going to put the sheep out to graze without the sheepdog? History tells me that people respond to fear. "Let them hate as long as they fear." |
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Jul 8 2005, 01:32 PM
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#77
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You can pay them back with terror all you like. I'd prefer you not do it in my name, and I'll take it without the base alloy of hypocrisy.
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Jul 8 2005, 01:38 PM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oderint dum metuant, indeed. Breaks down extremely quickly as soon as people start hating more than they fear.
Personally, I disagree quite strenuously. When the sheepdog eats the sheep and there is no shepherd, I'll take the wolves. ~J |
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Jul 8 2005, 01:39 PM
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#79
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
So I guess you feel a Hug-and-Cuddle campaign is what's in order?
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Jul 8 2005, 01:41 PM
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#80
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I wouldn't think of doing that. I'd say that paying terrorists back with terror is done in the name of anyone who wants democracy to survive and anyone who expects democracy without those measures are guilty of hypocrisy. Or at the very least, trying to have their cake and eat it.
When a sheep prevents the sheepdog from attacking the wolf, it deserves to be bitten. |
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Jul 8 2005, 01:41 PM
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#81
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Sure, if that's the way you want to spin it. I have no objection to well-reasoned military action at this time, since we've already fucked up enough to have created situations beyond the point of reasonable restoration through peaceful means (and I'm not talking about anything that happened in the last decade, either), but it's human nature to say "well, he's doing these horrible things so it's ok for me to as well". I'll point out that this applies not just to US policies, but also to anyone who may oppose them but who is at this point not being violent about it.
If these measures are indeed necessary, then I'm prepared to write democracy off.
How about when the sheepdog just starts tearing the sheep apart every time the wolf gives it a minute's pause? ~J |
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Jul 8 2005, 01:48 PM
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#82
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Good ole Catch 22s.
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Jul 8 2005, 01:50 PM
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#83
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
This is simply too unnuanced.
Yes, the war in Iraq was an acceptable move. Yes, its was primarily about oil. But, it was also about a percieved and real threat. And it punished a regime that has literally killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. I refuse to belive that more people die in Iraq now, than before the invasion. Before the killing was done by the regime, now its done by international terrorists and opportunistic local sheiks. - Only difference is open media attention. Noone should kill. Thats the main rule. But in war, the rules are different. You don't know the language of the locals, any one of them can be carrying a bomb, there is hardly any room to maneuver around without exposing yourself or your allies, so you are definately jumpy and willing to shoot first. - And should be. But these traits are not unique to the current war in Iraq, nor to US or EU politics, these are just the way things are. You can agree or disagree with the reason for the war in Iraq, but to critisize the execution of the war is uncalled for. That is naiive. Trying to be "nice" in a warzone will cost extremely many lives, and the monetary costs explodes if you have to use precision weaponry instead of just carpet bombing. - But again, is unrelated to the reductions in personal freedoms that the US recently accepted in order to gain easier information gathering for their law enforcement agencies. Personally I'm impressed that any nation was willing to go out and do something, rather than sit at home and watch regimes grow stronger on the blood of their citizens. All countries have economic reasons behind their actions. But as people will never acccept this, the politicians go down the list of moral reasons, that they may even genuinely believe in, to find one that can justify the actions they feel is necessary, economically and to show political resolve and power. "Weapons of mass destruction" was one such reasoning. It was Not however the only one. The media circus is too black/white and the public attention so short and narrow, that reasoning have to be presented like that. That is the real shame. You can't stand up and then go on for three hours on all the reasons to attack Iraq. Noone would listen. But all those good reasons are still there, all the same. |
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Jul 8 2005, 01:50 PM
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#84
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Then democracy should have been written off a looong time ago. It has always been necessary, you just did not know it.
You shoot that dog and get a new one. But do not expect me to shoot the dog that bites the sheep that doesn't know to run when the wolf is around. I'd probably shoot that sheep and eat it myself. |
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Jul 8 2005, 02:00 PM
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#85
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
I'm locking the thread and warnings are going out. You guys know better.
What happened was a sad tragedy. It should not be used as an excuse to bicker, fight, flame, and throw around accusations. Bull |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 13th April 2022 - 04:03 AM |
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