Duel-Wielding...?, are there rules for it? Options

[Tyrae]

I saw in the combat chapter (SR3) that there are rules for wielding 2 firearms, but nothing about pommeling someone down with the Adepts rattan sticks.
I figure it's something like +2 target number for the first swing and +4 for the off hand or something like that.
It's probablying another book *shrugs* but it andont can help me out here, thanks!

Tyrae ~ Fallen Child of Magdalen

[Tyrae]

Well that was interesting... ...the last sentance have

"...but if anyone can..."

not what it does...

Tyrae ~ Fallen Child of Magdalen

[Sigfried McWild]

I guess there's no separate rules for dual wielding melee weapons bacuase they are the same as those for dual guns.
Additional two weapons fighting rules are in the cannon companion I believe

[Talondel]

The rules for dual wielding melee weapons are NOT the same as for dual wielding melee weapons. Up until Cannon Companion, there were no rules for it at all, in fact. Generally speaking (since I hate to spell out exact rules to people), they require an extra skill (for off-hand weapons), and they give you extra dice to your melee test with your "main" weapon.

[Nath]

[Dashifen]

[Ed_209a]

Can I get a special B/R skill for dual welding?

:)

[Dashifen]

[John Campbell]

[Jpwoo]

the evils of dual wielding. Just because I am holding two sticks in my hands doesn't mean I can hit you twice as much with them, anymore than a boxer would get twice as many attacks because he has two hands, and furthering that, a kick boxer could manage four attacks if he can manage to hover somehow.

My house rule for hand to hand combat has always been that you can use whatever kind of weapon you want. One huge logsplitter, a katana, a pair of switchblades, a baseball bat in one hand and a combat axe in the other, it is up to you. You still only get one Melee check, no special rules needed. That single attack represents the myriad of ways you can use those weapons.

[Friggas Ring]

[Kurukami]

Depends on whether you've got a shield in your other hand. Just ask any SCA heavy fighter. :D

From what I've seen of the two-handed melee rules, generally speaking you get your normal attack dice plus half of the dice from your off-hand weapon skill. However, if you have the Ambidexterity Edge at 6 points or more (it goes up to 8 ), you don't need an off-hand weapon skill -- you're just assumed to use the primary weapons skill for both. Thus, you have have your normal attack dice, times one-and-a-half.

And, of course, normally you have penalties with the weapons. The Ambidexterity Edge decreases those too. All of it's in the Cannon Companion.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Street Wyze]

[John Campbell]

[El_Machinae]

The problem with the CC rules is that you're basically pushed to put a weapon if your off hand, even if it's just a hard-liner glove or a knife. Being able to roll 1/2 your quickness (diff +4) in additional dice is better than NOT rolling them!

[Street Wyze]

I believe this only applies for dual weapons, there are no special rules in shadowrun for having a sword and shield combo.

[John Campbell]

[DV8]

Here's my interpretation of the melee rules. [/pimp]

[BlackSmith]

there is no reason why not let people use smaller weapon as their main weapon but in RL you take the offencive with the better reach weapon that is, generaly, bigger.

the CC can say that the other weapon must be smaller to use off-hand skill but there is no mention about need of smaller weapon while having ambidex better than 4 points (IIRCR).

i have fought with two ratan sticks, two sai's and also with two katana's.
it aint that hard until you have to defend yourself. a shorter off-hand weapon is much better vs attacks because you have still the "time" and "space" to block the attack that has passed beound your main hands weapons block/defence sector.

only thing that im dissapointed is that Bo staff has no extra figures in it.
you realy should be able to use it as a dual weapon thus able to use off-hand skill conjuction with it (as we have house ruled).
it IS realy The Master of Weapons.

[Jpwoo]

Does anyone else think that this thread is overthinking this? The earlier posters talking about their real experiences SCA or otherwise have suggested that the rules are artificial and downright weird as compared to real life. The basics, the guts of shadowrun hand to hand, the very nature of the opposed skill test show that the more skilled and experienced fighter should win.

I think this holds true whether the opponents are holding one weapon or two. What mainly matters is your experience with the weapons you have. Adding an off hand skill blurs the original intent as I understand it, and it opens the door for exploitation of the rules. Working it out actually reveals that to be not such a smart way of doing things anyway.

Adding in half your off hand skill to your regular skill on an attack is pretty easily exploited. Suppose you have a Armed skill of 6 and you decide that you don't want to spend the 14 karma to upgrade it. For a mere 5 karma you can buy off hand at 2 and roll seven dice at about one third the cost. Buying up your offhand two more to 4 for the next bonus die will cost you an additional 14. the same cost as buying up your regular skill anyway. (I am writing this at work so my math may be slightly off, be kind). So the skill is about an even break there. Buying up to 6 for the next bonus die will cost 22 karma. where as buying up from a skill of 7 to 8 will cost you only 16 karma.

So at higher skill levels it is much more efficient to just buy up your base skill. So everyone would buy off hand at 2 or possibly 4 to get the cheap extra dice, but taking it beyond that doesn't make much sense. It seems to me to be both simpler and more realistic to ditch the whole offhand melee concept all together, and just say that Armed Combat encompasses however you want to fight.

On ambidexterity: People i have know who were genuine ambidextrous are not significantly better at doing things then people who aren't. They have a few basketball shots that other people don't have, but a better basketball player will beat them every time.

Short version: off handed weapon skill clunky and irrelevant. The person with the higher armed skill should win because they are more skilled.

I am going to go even further and advocate the elimination of different damage codes on different melee weapons. Make all weapons STR +2 M physical. Keep the reach rules as is. Since there is no weapon speed of attack built into the game this would make a knife fighter who would stab you lots in a turn just as viable as someone who uses a Katana or a pole arm. With the exception of reach, combat would come down to a test of skills rather than bigger sticks.

[ShadowGhost]

The rule states that "The Secondary Weapon cannot be larger than the Primary Weapon", so you can use two equal sized weapons for dual wielding (ambidexterity or Off-Hand Weapon skill), but there are limits. CC has a table on page 96, Primary Weapons, and Secondary Weapons.

Primary Weapons, such as Katana, sword etc may only be used as a primary weapon, but secondary weapons, such as clubs, knives, etc. may be use in both hands. So a polearm in both hands is a no-no, but nunchucks in each is a go.

[Kurukami]

A friend of mine uses a cybermonster dual-wielder in a certain high-powered game, with a 6-point ambidexterity edge. Basically, he fights with katana and wakizashi, and since he's upped his edged weapons skill to some obscene level like 11 or so, he rolls 16 dice as his base attack. And then there's enhanced articulation, and the reflex recorder, which each add a die and kick his base attack dice to 18...

That is, of course, before combat pool. Admittedly, the character's got something over a hundred Karma, and is greatly focussed in this one area. He is, quite simply, a very fast human-looking ork duellist (with, I think, Heavy Weapons or Assault Rifles as his "ranged" skill) who, because of his astonishing skill, heavy cyberware (bumping his Strength to 12 or so), and Dikoted weapons is regularly able to kill manifested spirits within a Combat pass or two.

Evil, eh? :vegm:

[FritzZero]

that massive dice-chucking ork brings up a good question, and i can't recall if it was mentioned in CC:

If i have an adept with Edged (6), Improved Comabt Skill (edged) (6) and Ambidexterity (6), when fighting dually, do I roll:

a) (edged dice + Improved skill dice) + (edged dice/2)
(6 + 6) + (6 / 2)= 15 dice or

b) (edged dice + Improved skill dice) + ((edged dice+ improved skill dice)/2)
(6 + 6) + ((6 + 6) /2) = 18 dice?

[Person 404]