Niiice.. - Dumpshock Forums

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > General Gaming

Niiice.., White wolf cuts throat....

Options

Eldritch

Jul 9 2005, 05:18 AM

Post #1

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 511
Joined: 19-August 02
Member No.: 3,139

QUOTE

White Wolf cuts own throat with "licensing fees" for game organizers
White Wolf, who publish live action RPGs (LARPs), have changed their policy so that anyone who runs a game where fees are collected have get permission in the form of a $20 per-player-per-year license from White Wolf (White Wolf also wants you to take this license in exchange for the right to print t-shirts and other schwag with the name of your own troupe on it).

Serious LARPers who love and promote the hobby (and have therefore kept White Wolf in business) often go to great personal expense to organize games: renting halls, making props, printing and photocopying materials, etc, and they ask their players to pay fees to recoup those costs -- indeed, it's hard to imagine LARPing as a viable hobby without this practice, since it would practically limit play to those willing to buy a pig in a poke by investing in their own props and such before they've played their first game.

These LARPing evangelists are being treated by White Wolf as infringers (though WW generously allows that the infringement might have been unintentional) and White Wolf requires that these pirates pay a fee to get legit.

When I was a kid playing RPGs in Toronto, I'd spend every Saturday at a rented hall in the Harbourfront complex, where every RPG imaginable was on offer. I paid a modest fee ($2?) to help cover the cost of the rental. If the organizers had had to get licenses from all the game publishers whose wares were in play at those events, it would have been impossible to manage.

I spent fortunes on gaming crap as a result of those Harbourfront games, pouring all my discretionary cash into the industry. The games I played the most were the games I spent the most money on. The way I got to play those games was by being introduced to them by GMs who were charging fees.

White Wolf is cutting its own throat, treating its super-recommender customers like thieves, and demanding that the entire world of LARPing rearrange itself to White Wolf's increased convenience and profitability. This isn't running a business, it's crybaby capitalism, the hysterical terror that someone, somewhere is turning a dime without cutting you in for a nickel. Nice going WW. See you on the scrapheap of history.

In brief, White Wolf is requesting that those who wish to charge players to play White Wolf games (beyond standard fees at a convention) obtain a license to do so from us. We request this both in order to ensure we can provide a consistent level of support and play experience to those fans looking to play our games and in order to protect our rights in terms of trademark and so forth. Yes, our games are meant to be played and we encourage everyone to do so — but charging players is stepping into a commercial arena and license agreements then come into play. Our vehicle for granting this license is membership in the Camarilla.

I do understand that there is going to be resistance to this policy. Many people have run or played in a wide variety of pay-for-play games (especially live-action games) using a White Wolf setting or system without any intention of infringing our rights. I hope that our efforts to support the various licensed games (listing on our website, promotion on mailing lists and in newsletters, promotional giveaways and prize support, etc.) will ultimately outweigh what may feel at first like an effort to stifle fan enthusiasm.

Ouch.

Boing-Boing

Ancient History View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 05:52 AM Post #2
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	Either someone's schizophrenic or there's some weird cutting-pasting there. In any event, I doubt it will come to anything. White Wolf can issue such a mandate, but can't enforce it anywhere except at the big cons...well, not to my knowledge. I can sorta see the point. If you ask for a license, you're weeding out people trying to make money off your game. I've never heard of anyone trying to make money by hosting a LARP event and charging lots of money for entry, but I admit it might be possible. It's not like this will cover, say, people playing and not charging. Or kids chipping in on snacks. Or everybody ponying up a share for a rental ahead of time. Why the Hell do I even care? I gave up on WW games after they did they ended OWOD. I can't even comment properly because I don't even follow the games anymore! I'm going to bed.

Eldritch View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 05:59 AM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	:) Good night Ancient! Yeah it's stupid to the point of bad publicity. Did they reallly, really think about it?

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 11:05 AM Post #4
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	seriously, people gripe enough about paying for books. How many groups actually have a core book for each player? Now they want to charge them to play? Like AH said, yes ,theoretically, someone could try to make money off of it. But I don't know anyone that would want to pay to play , unless it was some convention (maybe) or paying in the form of snacks. Of course, they can only theoretically enforce it, so they just end up looking foolish twice.

JongWK View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 01:13 PM Post #5
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992	Ok, I've read the WW press release, plus a few gazillion posts on blogsand forums. Also read the WW forums, which were of a similar mind than the above links. Yes, WW has lost its head. It's a scaremongering tactic to get terrified kids to send them money--there are other ways to "protect their IP." Already people (and I mean die-hard, rabid fans of WW) are calling for a boycott or simply dropping from the game (and switching to other LARPs). Some have even dared WW to sue them. I'm sure the company would love a second PR fiasco after that. Justin Achilli didn't improve things at all, especially after dropping by at RPG.net and starting to insult people. :please:

JongWK View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 01:48 PM Post #6
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992	LOL, it's even on Slashdot.

Penta View Member Profile	Jul 9 2005, 07:20 PM Post #7
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500	Oh my God. How braindead can you get? This is like TSR sending the lawyers after fan websites.

the_dunner View Member Profile	Jul 10 2005, 02:04 AM Post #8
Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522	So, I've looked at this, and there's an incredibly obvious work around. The rule specifically doesn't apply to conventions. Every WoD LARP is now a "convention." Organizers charge convention fees, then have their "con" GM's run the LARP. Where's the problem?

Shadow View Member Profile	Jul 11 2005, 05:56 PM Post #9
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	It actually doesn't sound legal. Of course they can say it, but saying it doesn't make it legal.

Eldritch

Jul 14 2005, 05:15 PM

Post #10

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 511
Joined: 19-August 02
Member No.: 3,139

Andd Baddah Bing:

QUOTE

White Wolf kills its pay-for-play policy
Last week, Live Action Role Playing Game (LARP) publisher White Wolf announced that it was going to begin requiring license fees from anyone who collected money to play its games (a practice that would have penalized the many game-masters who pass the hat to recoup the costs of their elaborate preparations, hall-rental, costume production, etc). After major outcry from their players and customers, they've backed down off the policy. This wasn't the first time they've tried to assert more copyright than their customers were comfortable with and gotten burned; maybe this time they've learned their lesson, though:

Based on all your feedback, it's obvious that the policy as currently worded is not going to accomplish these goals. So, we are pulling it off the table as a blanket policy. I realize that the proverbial genie can't be shoved back in the bottle, but the guidelines I handed to a few people at ORIGINS and posted here last week clearly need to be reworked and rethought, so please consider them withdrawn.

I expect to chat with some of the major LARP organizations running World of Darkness games in the coming weeks in order to hammer out license terms that address their needs and ours, and don't penalize the player community that has made the World of Darkness what it is (and that pays my salary).

Linkage

Orginal post at WW

A swing and a miss. The fallout must have been crushing. I mean even non larpers had to respond to this, 'cause they new that they would be next.

« Next Oldest · General Gaming · Next Newest »

Display Mode: Standard · Switch to: Linear+ · Switch to: Outline

Track this topic · Email this topic · Print this topic · Subscribe to this forum

Lo-Fi Version

Time is now: 3rd December 2025 - 03:20 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.