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FlakJacket
post Sep 18 2003, 01:01 AM
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Has anyone ever run any games that revolve around the intelligence agencies of the sixth world, either as agents or protagonists? Wondering 'cause it just seemed an area of the world thats never been looked at, and I just finished a couple books by Robert Littell - The Company and Walking Back the Cat - that I really enjoyed and that are a dramatised/film version of intelligence operations that seem in setting with Shadowrun.

Edit: I know it was mentioned as a popssible ages back, but do we have any more idea if organisations like the CIA might be getting a mention in Loose Alliances? Hhmm, time to go bug Adam I think. :)
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Raygun
post Sep 18 2003, 05:54 AM
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The whole spy genre and Cold War thing is very interesting to me. Back when I used to game a lot more often, espionage was often part of the plotline, be it national or corporate. I don't really know if the whole global intelligence community thing has been tapped into as far as canon material goes (that is, beyond Jon Szeto's "One Nation Under God" chapter in Threats 2, which I thought was a pretty cool idea [Thanks, P!]). Honestly, I haven't bought a Shadowrun book in many a moon.

I have been toying with the idea of putting some material together for another website along these lines and I'd be very interested in other people's ideas about this sort of thing. I certainly have my own. However, being that I really don't rely all that much on canon material for plotlines, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as far as canon world politics go (except for the very broad strokes laid out in the main book), and that kind of thing is very necessary for coming up with the minutae involved with corporate/political espionage material.

Anyway, it's just my kind of thing. If there's work on this in progress, I'm very interested. If not, I'd like to be involved with getting it going.
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Shadow
post Sep 18 2003, 06:13 AM
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I second that. Spy's and espionage are my thing. I came up with a story line I never got to run about an Elven Agency working out of the Tir. Basically they were Navy Seals but they worked for the civilian govt. I really wanted to run the team but alas, no one wanted to play. I would be very interested in putting together something like "Intelligence Agency's of the 6th world". The same as Raygun I don't get my stories from Canon, so anything we came up with would need to be based on real-world +60 years.

Any thoughts on how to put this together?
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Nath
post Sep 18 2003, 10:23 AM
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The very first adventure I wrote and played, to test Shadowrun rules, didn't involve any intelligence agency. That was the last to do so :D

For me, except when they hired for a very personal or local interest, shadowrunners are doing work, be it daa gathering or black ops, that should fall to intelligence services, which implies a relationship.

As for canon material, Shadown of North America has quite a few things concerning the CAS intelligence agencies and the Sioux OMI. There are passing mention of the UCAS agencies (implying that at least most of the acronyms, CIA, NSA, NRO, DIA, stayed around) and of the Tir Tainrgire Information Secretariat (but maybe that one was more developped in Tir Tainrgire SB). Target: Awakened Lands also spent some lines to describe the situation of its intelligence apparatus, the ASIO and the ASIS becoming the AISE. In Germany, there is the German BIS (a description a bit too munchkin if you ask me) and MET2000's Argus. I guess the London SB also have something about British services. The Mossad have been on the stage with Ibn Eisa and Aden in the recent book. A very long time ago, Seattle Guide indicated the CFS Intelligence Service was acting in Seattle under the guise of Dadson Entertainment, but that the IS was globally only a smokescreen for the Japanese (a thing that probably changed since...).

On the corporate side, there is Shiawase MIFD and CATCo's Seraphim for the big names. S-K Prime seems to be handling the intelligence duties for Saeder-Krupp IIRC Target: Matrix. Ares has Knight Errant "intelligence and recon batallions" (YotC) but also have AreSpace maintaining UCAS spysats, so I guess there must be a centralizing structure somewhere. Yamatetsu has the Yamatetsu Naval Intelligence, a name appearing in report in Target: Wastelands, probably depending from Yamatetsu Naval Technologies. With CD, it's not clear if Aztechnology Corporate Security maintain intelligence activities and which sort, and what is the role of the "Aztechnology Management Information System". Maybe the Aztlan SB says more. The Lone Star might also have interesting intelligence capacities since the privatization of the DEA.

I did write a bit about various intelligence agencies on my website, but never bothered to translate it into English (quite fortunately because at that time I was doing poor translation... not sure it changed still). Well, I realize most of what's on my website is related to intelligence activities anyway...

EDIT: concerning Loose Alliances, my understanding of its pitch is that it will only concerns 'independent' organizations, which, in theory, intelligence agencies are not.
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Frag-o Delux
post Sep 18 2003, 01:02 PM
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I believ the CyberPirates SB has some stuff on Interpol, and some stuff on how they still interact with government agencies. I believe Interpol is almost broke. So they spend most of their time and resource on smuggling, and try to stay in goo gfavor of the UCAS, CAS and a fe others in hopes to get some funding from them.
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Nath
post Sep 18 2003, 01:34 PM
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Since Corporate Download indicated that Saeder-Krupp was keeping Interpol alive and functionning, which remove much of the need for favor if the organization really need something. An interesting unanswered point is, how S-K control is achieved ? Maybe Interpol changed its status (it wouldn't be the first time) to accept extraterritorial corps. Or rather, extraterritorial corps changed Interpol status, since they have much to gain from access to criminals identification for their own security.

BTW the same part of CD says Lofwyr has connections inside most of the European states' intelligence agencies.
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FlakJacket
post Sep 18 2003, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (Nath)
BTW the same part of CD says Lofwyr has connections inside most of the European states' intelligence agencies.

Yeah. I never really did like that mention much. Just seemed a bit 'too l33t for j0!' personally.
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Kanada Ten
post Sep 19 2003, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE
NMAth   
...Lofwyr has connections inside most of the European states' intelligence agencies.
QUOTE
FlakJacket   
Yeah. I never really did like that mention much. Just seemed a bit 'too l33t for j0!' personally.

Considering how many agents the former Soviet Union had inside the US and others, I don't think that the world's largest corporation (which has more wealth than said nation and which controls Europe's communications grid <cough> Carnivore) should have any difficulty placing agents and gaining connections in the weak and splintered European states of Shadowrun time. Sader-Krupp is more powerful than most of those nations as is. YMMV.

That said, the UCAS FBI spends some* its time investigating megacorporate affairs, trying to gain leverage and information. The CIA does much the same though more for technological theft and threat assessment. And the NSA... doesn't exist ;)

*Double Exposure.

Raygun, if you want the small details of politics, we need a new thread and/or some idea of what you want... I mean do you want to know why CAS agents might sneak into General Saito's Defense Secretary's San Fran office, or why PCC agents might bug the CAS Security Subcommittee's offices, or why Aztechnology agents might be disguised as recreational divers around the Chico-Obro (sp?) dam, or why UCAS agents might break into MCT's computer system, or why Ares KE agents would go undercover as Ares Hard Corps officers, or...
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Sepherim
post Sep 19 2003, 01:54 AM
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If rumours are right ans S-K has control of Europes Matrix network and "hears" all that is said, why not have members inside most governments in the world? It'd be quite easier to do it than to process and clean everything that is said through the Matrix (phone calls, faxes, mails, ...) in one whole continent.
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FlakJacket
post Sep 19 2003, 02:41 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Considering how many agents the former Soviet Union had inside the US and others, I don't think that the world's largest corporation should have any difficulty placing agents and gaining connections in the weak and splintered European states of Shadowrun time.

Oh I don't have any disagreements over that SK and all the other megas try to infiltrate national governments, just that the way I remembered reading it was that Lofwyr basically had penetrated every single European government agency and basically did what he wanted with them. That was the general bit I didn't like. Have some, but don't go overboard. And on the Carnivore and weak and splintered nations thing, well... Guess we'll have to see. ;) And 'weak' can be a very subjective thing. :)
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post Sep 19 2003, 02:54 AM
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Tzeentch has a couple of files on Intelligence in Shadowrun.

Aztlan describes Aztechnology intelligence briefly, describing its massive SIGINT capability (second only to the Vatican) and so forth. There's also a reference to a UCAS intelligence activity called Consular Operations (ConsOps) that I don't recall ever seeing after that book. But then again, Just Compensation had a reference to the "DSA," which in hindsight was probably just a typo (Yeah, how dare I).

Back in the old Seattle SB the FBI and NSA were referred to frequently as being not so much interested in doing their stated missions (i.e., foreign counterintelligence for the FBI, foreign SIGINT for the NSA) but keeping an eye on Seattle (along with the CIA, but it gets almost no reference compared to those two). Liekwise it also mentioned a very extensive Mitsuhama intelligence program in the Seattle region along with Aztechnology.

I've been intererested in intelligence for years, but I've never bothered doing anything with in for SR. Besides, after having a couple bosses, lecturers or acqauintance who worked in the Community, it kind of lost its glamour. That and the idea about writing about something where the vast majority of the employees sit in an office building sifting through raw information to write PDBs sounds boring as hell. Ooh, CIA Special Activities operatives... treat as shadowrunners or SpecFor. Oh, Clandestine Service... Johnsons, runners. NOCs... runners. Political intrigue and bureacratic turf wars would be one of the few things that would actually distinguish them from what SR is already all about IMO.
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FlakJacket
post Sep 19 2003, 02:56 AM
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Well since this seems to be turning into something, I'll have a dig through the old London sourcebook and a couple real life resoucres for UK related intelligence agencies and the like. :)
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Raygun
post Sep 19 2003, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (Kenada Ten)
Raygun, if you want the small details of politics, we need a new thread and/or some idea of what you want... I mean do you want to know why CAS agents might sneak into General Saito's Defense Secretary's San Fran office, or why PCC agents might bug the CAS Security Subcommittee's offices, or why Aztechnology agents might be disguised as recreational divers around the Chico-Obro (sp?) dam, or why UCAS agents might break into MCT's computer system, or why Ares KE agents would go undercover as Ares Hard Corps officers, or...


Nothing that specific yet. The first thing I think we should do is come up with a set of guidelines so that we can compile this info in and ordered manner. These forums are great for discussing ideas, but we've been all over the place thus far. I think we need a place to put all of this compiled data so that it's easy to find and search through later. I'll be happy to handle the compilation once we get moving on a straight track.

Here's a starter set of guidelines we can change if we need to.

1) Put together a list of canon-confirmed national and corporate intelligence services, so when know which acronym is applied to which nation/corporation.

2) Figure out what kind of intelligence gathering each agency is responsible for and their limitations. (As well as their relationships with other departments and agencies and what kind of basic command structure they employ, if we want to go that far.)

3) Discuss their strengths and weaknesses in detail (technology level, command authority, general operational procedures, company morale, etc...)

4) Compare the compiled data to real-life organizations and discuss adding our own "house" agencies and how we can expand upon the complied info while avoiding stepping on canon toes as much as possible.

5) Figure out who's trying to slip who the stealth sausage, in what position, with how much lubrication and why. :spin:

6) Generate pages in the "corporation format" (ala Corporate Shadowfiles) that we can treat as online resources for all Shadowrun players to use.

I think we should start with North America, if only because it's the most discussed region on the globe as far as Shadowrun is concerned.

Everyone cool with those guidelines? If not, less discuss that first. I think we can make this a really decent resource for everyone, but we should apply a good bit of structure to this if we want to make it really good. If we act like our own little intel agency, we could come up with something incredibly cool.
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Shadow
post Sep 23 2003, 02:06 AM
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Excellent! I think those are terrific guidelines. The next question is, should we stay in this thread or create on in projects? I think it would be easier to find in projects, then we can start posting what we know about what agencies.
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Kanada Ten
post Sep 23 2003, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE
1) Put together a list of canon-confirmed national and corporate intelligence services, so when know which acronym is applied to which nation/corporation.

I need some guidelines as to what constitutes an Intelligence Service. Where is the line between Investigative (FBI?), Intelligence (CIA?), and Special Forces (SEAL) Services?

UGB Upravleniye Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti (Russia) -T:SH, pg.49
CIA Central Intelligence Agency (Assumed) (UCAS) -T2
Secret Service (UCAS) -Underworld
Mossad ha-Mossad le-Modiin ule-Tafkidim Meyuhadim (Assumed) (Israel) -Dot6W

QUOTE
I think we should start with North America, if only because it's the most discussed region on the globe as far as Shadowrun is concerned.


We can break them down in this manner, but I'll just be picking up a book and scouring it for references in order of my collection.
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Shadow
post Sep 23 2003, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE
Kanada Ten:
I need some guidelines as to what constitutes an Intelligence Service. Where is the line between Investigative (FBI?), Intelligence (CIA?), and Special Forces (SEAL) Services?


I think for now we can assume intel is just that. Agencies that work in secret, doing things outside or above the law. The FBI for the most part is an open book to any senator who wants to know whats going on. The CIA not so much.

Also, wht about CAS? Does anyone know there intel capabilities?
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FlakJacket
post Sep 23 2003, 03:22 AM
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For the UCAS, the NSA has had a couple brief mentions in the sourcebooks and one of the novels refers to them as well IIRC. The novel 'Just Compensation' also mentions a military agency called the DSA that sounded decidedly like the Defense Intelligence Agency.

It also mentions a CAS groups caled the SIA - no elaboration on what it means I could see from a quick scan - and a military group called the Ferrets that seem to be an upgunned version of Marine Recon for covert actions. Of course, since novels are only really canon storyline-wise how official the DSA/SIA/Ferrets are is up in the air. :sleepy:
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Sep 23 2003, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE

1) Put together a list of _canon-confirmed_ national and corporate intelligence services, so when know which acronym is applied to which nation/corporation.


Well, let's start with the real U.S. Intelligence Community.

* Central Intelligence Agency--CIA (foreign intelligence collection and analysis)
* National Security Agency--NSA (foreign Signals Intelligence and Information Security/Cryptography)
Defense Intelligence Agency--DIA (military intelligence analysis and collection for the SecDef, JCS)
National Reconaissance Office--NRO (satellite construction, administration)
National Imagery and Mapping Agency--NIMA (image and mapping analysis and production)
* FBI (domestic intelligence, counterintelligence, CT investigations domestic and abroad)
Office of Naval Intelligence-ONI (Naval Intelligence)
Marine Corps Intelligence--MCI (Marine Corps Intelligence (Spare the jokes, please))
Air Intelligence Agency--AIA (Air Force Intelligence)
Army Intelligence and Security Command--INSCOM (Army Intelligence and Security)
Coast Guard Intelligence--CGI (Coast Guard Intelligence)
State Dept. Bureau of Intelligence and Research--INR (intelligence analysis and policy support for SecState and PPS)
Dept. of Energy Office of Intelligence/Counter-Intelligence & National Nuclear Security Administration--I/CI & NNSA (Energy and nuclear science Intelligence and Counterintelligence acitivity, as well as Security of nuclear technology)
Treasury Dept. Office of Intelligence Support (Intelligence Support and liason for Treasury. Doubtless more useful before almost all of their enforcement bureaus were transferred in March to DHS or Justice)

Homeland Security is probably in here now, as well in the guise of various organizations. Technically, the CIA runs the Counter Terrorist Center and the Terrorist Threat Integration Center.

There are also a myriad of different CI/CT organizations such as the ones in DHS as well as the National Counterintelligence Executive (NCIX).

Canada:

Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
Communications Security Establishment (CSE)

Shadowrun:
* Consular Operations (field operations. See Aztlan)
x DSA (military intelligence in Just Compensation)
x SIA (Which I have for years assumed was the Southern Intelligence Agency, CAS intelligence in JC)

* Denotes agencies mentioned in Shadowrun canon.
x Denotes a reference with about as much standing as a Ninth Circuit decision--generally okay, but occassionally and more frequently than others, is smacked down by the Supreme Court.In SR, this esteemable position goes to novels.

Reference sites:

World Intelligence Agencies [FAS]
U.S. Intelligence Agencies and Information [FAS]
U.S. Intelligence Community Info [intelligence.gov]
Members of the Community [intelligence.gov]
Canadian Intelligence [FAS]
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Nath
post Sep 23 2003, 11:39 PM
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From what I can recall without searching my books,

CIA: Seattle Guide, Target: UCAS, SoNA, Threats 2 and probably many other. Target: UCAS is interesting as it mentions in the profile of Gen. Steven Coe Bowling, a member of the Scott Commission and former DCI that the CIA conducted clandestine ops against the Sioux and the Pueblo without approval from the White House in the early 2040ies.
NSA: Seattle Guide, SoNA.
NRO: SoNA (the book only mentions UCAS agencies' acronyms in the CAS chapter to say they still exist while the CAS created a new organization)
DIA: SoNA (idem)
FBI: many references, from the top of my head Seattle Guide, Target: Matrix, ...

DSI: CAS' Department of Strategic Intelligence (CIA+NSA+DIA+NRO+...), introduced in SoNA. It get half a page of that book.
DDI: CAS' Department of Domestic Investigation (FBI+DEA+ATF+USSS+...), idem
ERLA: CAS' Extraterritoriality Registration & Liaison Agency. Depends from the CAS Bureau of Commerce and in charge of watching/spying megacorps.

Mossad: YotC (Ibn Eisa), DSW (Aden)
OMI: Sioux Office of Military Intelligence, SoNA and a novel IIRC. Like the CAS' agencies, RTFSoNA.
Information Secretariat of the Tir. SoNA and probably Tir Tairngire SB. Note that Prince Jonathon Reed is "Director of Operations".
BIS: "Bundesamt für die Innere Sicherheit" (Federal Office for Home Security, right ?), in Germany SB

Yamatetsu Naval Intelligence: Target: Wastelands (riptides)
MIFD: Shiawase' Market Information and Forecast Department. Corporate Download and Target: Matrix gives enough.
Seraphim: Cross personal espionage network. PoaD, Blood in the Boardroom, Corporate Download, SoNA-Québec.
Argus: MET2000 intelligence apparatus, in Germany SB.

There's also a mention of the CFS' intelligence service in Seattle Guide (comments abpout Dadson Entertainment, in Everett IIRC) but I don't remember if it's the intelligence service or the Intelligence Service with a proper capitalization of an official name.
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Sep 24 2003, 12:14 AM
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QUOTE (Nath)
CIA: Seattle Guide, Target: UCAS, SoNA, Threats 2 and probably many other. Target: UCAS is interesting as it mentions in the profile of Gen. Steven Coe Bowling, a member of the Scott Commission and former DCI that the CIA conducted clandestine ops against the Sioux and the Pueblo without approval from the White House in the early 2040ies.


From the Dumpshock Timeline:
QUOTE

2044 - In the UCAS, General Steven Coe Bowling is appointed by President Preston as Director of the CIA to replace William Sessions III after a series of scandals involving clandestine programs to undermine the Sioux Nation and Pueblo Corporate Council. (Target: UCAS)


I also found this interesting:

QUOTE

2016 - In the U.S.A., intelligence agencies such as the CIA and FBI begin to integrate magicians into their organizations. (Shadowrun Second Edition)


I'd check the Seattle SB for the CFS reference, but not right now. However, I will also reiterate its numerous references to MCT intelligence.
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FlakJacket
post Sep 24 2003, 12:40 AM
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The only canon reference for the UK are the Field Operatives of the Lord Protector's Office, known as the Templars. The Lord Protector's Office basically regulates all official magicians and magic in the UK through their Licensing Bureau, and the Templars mandate is to take care of illegal magical acts that threaten the national security - a fairly wide remit at times. They're also the Lord Protector's black bag squad but that's the unofficial side of them.

I'll have a trawl through a few sources and put up some real life ones tomorrow night. :)
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Raygun
post Sep 24 2003, 02:46 AM
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Awesome. Here's what I've got so far. This is just basic information tacking the agency name to its nation/corporation. If there's something you don't see listed, feel free to speak up. Again, this is just a compilation of agency names. We'll get around to adding more in time. For now, there are some blanks that need to be filled in. Considering that I run on a minimum of SR books, I can't look up this info myself, if it is available. So I either need the info from you guys or wee need to discuss things like HQ location and Area of Responsibility, what AISE stands for, etc...

Should novel material be considered canon? I say no, but I'm interested in the consensus on DSA and SIA, both UCAS agencies, correct?

I'll try to update every day. Hopefully I can keep up with you guys. ;)

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Fortune
post Sep 24 2003, 02:53 AM
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As far as I know, all novel material is considered canon with, I believe, one exception, but I can't recall which (Terminus Experiment?).
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FlakJacket
post Sep 24 2003, 03:38 AM
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AISE stands for the Australian Intelligence and Security Enforcement, pronounced ace, agency. Was created in 2031 when the Federal Police and the Australian Secret Intelligence Organisation merged together. Their job basically covers any and all issues affecting national security, so they can get around a bit. Also, since they're a federal agency that means they technically have jurisdiction over all city and state agencies. This means they can pull rank on Lone Star and Knight Errant if they want, so relations are fairly cool. Seem to recruit heavily from ex-military and ex-corporate security types, although ex-employees of the Big Ten or their subsidiaries are very rare for obvious reasons.

According to shadowtalk, around this time the Australian Secret Intelligence Service was disbanded for no real reason and no new agency was initiated to replace them. However, apparently most of their personnel transfered to AISE and were squirreled away so it's a bit of a mystery which departments they're on or what they're meant to be doing. Looks as though AISE either took over foreign intelligence gathering as well themselves or are being used as a smokescreen. Either way, there's nothing public or officialy acknowledged doing it.

Well for the UGB, I figure they'd still be in the old KGB digs at the Lubyanka. At any rate, I definately figure that they'd want their headquarters to be near the seat of power in Moscow.

The UGB is the Upravleniye Gosudarstevnnoy Bezopasnosti- Directorate of State Security. They're like the old KGB. Duties include foreign intelligence gathering, internal repression, counter-intelligence, providing security for government offices, holds the activation codes for the nuclear devices - like the old USSR, the Red Army controls the weapons and delivery systems whist the UGB turns them on and off, and spying on the other government inteligence agencies. The book basically says that all the seperate agencies that were split off from the KGB were rejoined so they'd also cover SIGINT, ELINT, COMINT and COMPINT that Fapsi now does.

They also control the Border Guards who're a mechanised semi-military force that, like the name suggest, guard the borders - and they've got some serious hardware in the form of APC's, scout cars, attack helicopters, some light tanks plus their own flotilla of coatal patrol vessels in their naval arm.

Another real life Russian agencies that I'll look up is the GRU - Russian military intelligence, and some say even more sucessful at foreign ops than the KGB was. They also have a better general reputation, and tend to feel themselves superior to, than the KGB since they never had to get mixed up with spying on their own citizens. They're currently headquartered at the Khodinka airfield near Moscow in a place called the Aquarium 'cause their main offices are a nine storey glass encased affair - I can definately see that getting polarised by the 2060's. :)

Edit: And I think it was Shadowboxer that isn't canon storyline-wise, although the Terminus Experiment definately gives it a run for its money. ;)
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Kanada Ten
post Sep 24 2003, 03:41 AM
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I would say use the novels here, just because we'll never get near enough information/agencies otherwise.
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