 Intelligence Agencies |
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 Sep 27 2003, 12:51 AM
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#51
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King of the Hobos  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127  |
Oh? Well, haven't read Cyberpirates recently. That actually ties in pretty nicely with T:SH though. Since SK has its claws into the Russian government - at least the western/European end as opposed to Yamatetsu and Vladivostok - as well as being one of the main groups fighting over control of the UGB leadership, of which it currently owned the head, with their close links to the DGI it makes sense. Plus just screwing with Aztechnology and trying to horn in on another market. :) |
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Sep 27 2003, 02:15 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 102 Joined: 26-February 02 From: The freelancer crackhouse Member No.: 119 |
One other thing worth noting, since it's being discussed so much:
The ATF evolved into the BATTF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Telesma, and Firearms), per Threats 2, p. 57. As a DOJ (Department of Justice) agency, it would be more of a law enforcement apparatus than "pure" intelligence, but I do notice that you are also including a large number of law enforcement agencies in your list. (Which isn't unreasonable, since several governments, like the US, do relegate domestic intelligence and counterintelligence missions primarily to national law enforcement.) |
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Sep 27 2003, 08:38 AM
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#53
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I put togther a map showing the Virginia/North Virginia border and general vicinity of DC per the info Jon provided. Now we can all (especially me) keep that info straight. Upon creating this map, I came to wonder which country the Virginia peninsula counties (Accomack and Northampton) are a part of. I assume that since they weren't mentioned as being part of North Virginia that they are part of the CAS. Any ideas, Jon?
Okay. We're doing pretty good at compiling canon information. I'm sure there's more that's going to come along, but how does everyone feel about moving on to step 2 (initial individual agency development), starting with the UCAS CIA? Another, possibly much faster way to handle agency development might be to hand the task of to a person (or a small team) to develop a single agency background and structure themselves and submit it for general review after an alotted amount of time. Up to you guys. How do you want to handle this? |
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Sep 27 2003, 01:25 PM
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#54
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
I don't remember any textual reference, but all the maps I can hink of, from SR2, NAGNA and SoNA, all showed the UCAS-CAS border on the southshore, putting the Peninsula in the UCAS. Moreover, they never display a border on the peninsula like there should be if one part was CAS. BTW, Seraphim's HQ is in Montreal, not in Quebec City (PoaD, page 60). |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Sep 27 2003, 06:39 PM
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#55
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Guests |
I think that now would be a good time to divide the agencies amongst ourselves. I reckon that some agencies will require different amount of effort because of their individual scope, roles, size, and utility.
Since we're going to start out with the CIA, I would suggest that we break it down into four sections working together: Leadership (DCI and Community Management), and one each for the Directorates of Intelligence, Operations, and Science & Technology. There may be a fifth depending on where Magic fits into the CIA structure: Is it a separate Directorate, are there different offices in each of the Directorates (Magical analysis in DI, an office running Magical Operations, etc.), or did it become part of S&T? My rationale is based on the disitinct functions of each of the Diretorates, with each one having its own structure and indentity. As for the leadership, the CIA and the IC are pretty top-heavy for an organization, and there is a great deal of room for background (BG) information and political intrigues between the various officers and their respective agendas, priorities, and relationships to the rest of the IC. We could go into, for example, CIA history in general here and some of the major events like DCI Sessions' ops against PCC & Sioux, and what DCIs have brought to the agency. |
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Sep 28 2003, 09:26 PM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
You're right. The map in SR3.13 shows that the peninsula is UCAS territory. I guess I should have looked there first! The map has been updated accordingly.
Updated.
Sounds good to me. Should we include a "one level up" page addressing the Intelligence Community, DCI and Management? Might make it a little easier to comprehend the relationship between agencies and the rest of the government. It would also be nice to keep the CIA page focused on the CIA itself and its operations. As far as the CIA itself is concerned, I'm sure that each directorate would include some department that deals with magical intelligence specifically even if there is a dedicated "Directorate of Thaumaturgy" or whatever we want to call it. My own opinion is that there would be a dedicated directorate. There's a lot going on there.
That's pretty much what I had in mind as well. One thing I'm concerned about is giving GMs room to manuver. Laying down an organizational structure is good, adding a general historical outline is good. A basic outline is fine. As a GM, I'd like to have some free room to mess around in. Here's the page I've put together for CIA. Not much on it now, just kind of an idea for laying it all out. The only things I've added, which are by all means up for discussion (this is just an idea), are the Directorate of Thaumaturgy and the Awakened Affairs Staff under the Office of the DCI. Opinions requested. |
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Sep 28 2003, 09:33 PM
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#57
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
Magic could also be an office with dual appartenance to S&T and Operations, like are the Clandestine Information Technology Office and the Office of Advanced Analytic Tools, shared between S&T and Ops for the former, with Intel for the later.
In a corporate environment like Shadowrun, the fate of In-Q-tel could also be something interesting (for those who don't know, In-Q-Tel is a private non-profit enterprise funded by the CIA to invest in companies to develop technologies useful to the national security). Another idea that came to my mind for the CIA would be the development in the use of rigger. IIRC they were with the USAF for that drone that fired a missile on a car. More generally, the CIA has an history with flying things, from Air America to the first U-2 flights. As for dividing the agencies between ourselves, maybe there should be a restriction to make sure people who will write about the CAS or Sioux agencies read SoNA, about Aztechnology service, the Aztlan SB, and so on, to respect the available canon information. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Sep 29 2003, 01:08 AM
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#58
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Guests |
I was thinking about that, too, but I wasn't sure if it was going to be treated separately or as part of the CIA file since the leadership are basically the same. However, since there does appear to be another perspective on it, I think that the UCAS IC should probably be treated separately from any of the agencies even though it will also tie into the different agencies. I also think that in addressing the entire IC leadership and structure, there is the similar concern in addressing the Defense Intelligence Community (which, according to dia.mil, the DIA claims to chair) which is even more of a bureaucratic nightmare than the general IC because there is the added element of the DoD civilian and military leadership as well as between the different branches (e.g., the Director of the NRO is also the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for, IIRC, Space Affairs). Since NRO, DIA and NSA are the only agencies we are currently working on, I think that it is less of a problem than factoring in all 15 intelligence agencies, including the military branch agencies. I think it may merit a brief reference or overview. OH, I didn't notice this until just now. The NSC should probably be discussed in the IC Leadership and Community Management document. I think it would be especially important since there was a big deal made during the transition of the Clinton to Bush Administrations that there were people in the Bush White House who felt that the NSC, and specifically the NSC Staff, under Clinton became a mini-CIA. The Staff does cover a great deal of the same issues, and under Clinton had nearly 20 committees (Bush's NSC has 11) of high-level officials from different agencies and departments and was ostensibly to do the job that Homeland Security does now, especially Richard Clarke's office and his role in Clinton/Bush's Counterterrorism operations, and a sort of pre-TTIC role. Current Organization of the NSC. One corrections, it's the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. I'd like to leave some of the current RL situations (e.g., the DHS) open for possible use in expounding upon the information that we will be working with. This should be contemplated in the saem context that since POAD: DS there were officially fewer Cabinet departments in SR than IRL (e.g., no more Energy Dept., no DHS to my knowledge ever existed), and there is at least one new Cabinet Department (At least, this goes back to POAD: DS)--the Dept. of Information. SoNA may have changed things. I wouldn't be surprised, actually, but I'm working at a slight disadvantage.
Great. That sounds like a good rationale, and a reasonable expectation from having to incorporate something that is so all-encompassing into the existing structure of the Agency.
Sweet.
That's excellent. I like the structure, and I especially like what and where you've added the different staff offices. The DT is also well-appreciated. I think that it will add an especially interesting touch to the CIA to see how the DT plays a role in the overall structure of the CIA, and how it deals with the application of THAMINT into collection and analysis. OBTW, I think that Magical Intelligence should be referred to in the community parlace as THAMINT--Thaumatugical Intelligence, specifically because it goes with the Directorate of Thaumaturgy. Of course, that's just my opinion. OBTW 2, I know, and I noticed you wrote in the file, that the CIA can't investigate UCAS citizens. With a percentage of people in the UCAS who are SINless--and thus effectively "probabtionary" citizens, what kind of line do you think might be drawn between where the CIA starts and the FBI takes over? I think this will also be important once we consider corporate citizenship, and whether a UCAS-born corporate citizen is within the scope of jurisdiction of the CIA. I figure this will become important in the discussion of the Directorate of Intelligence and what I would like to do in creating an "Office of Megacorporate Analysis," and even possibly a Megacorporate Operations Center similiar to the Counterterrorist/ Counterintelligence/ Information Operations Centers.
Yeah, that's quite likely.
Ah, the Venture Capital corp. Well, the interesting thing about the IC dealing with megacorps is that the IC quite possibly has as much experience as Wall Street in creating myriad holding, shell, and dummy corps. I think the CIA relationship with corporations will continue to be quite strong (The NSA I'm not so sure of), especially with the FedGov's cozy relationship with Ares.
They'd have to deal with NRO on the aerospace aspect (although I've read stories which seem to suggest it'll be another DoD agency if NRO doesn't get its shit together). But they'll still be very active in drone tech, no doubt. I'm sure they've still got people crawling all over the SCIRE. |
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Sep 29 2003, 04:00 PM
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#59
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
The Department of Information was already in the Cabinet presented in NAGNA. I guess energy would fall to the Department of Resources (which appeared in PoaD and wasn't in the NAGNA). BTW before someone use him in the political background, the Secretary of Defense chosen in the first Haeffner Administration is Andrew Maykrantz, as says PoaD, but he didn't stay, and according to Corporate Download in 2060, a certain Michael Broder holds that office.
I think it was Tzeentch who already created the MANINT, for Mana Intelligence. I would support that one because detector combining FAB clouds with ultraviolet sensors seems a bit far from "thaumaturgy". |
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 Sep 30 2003, 12:19 AM
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#60
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
On the Agency page, I agree you should have a separate page for how the IC is set up and related. Just post a link from the DCI to that page ie (see also Intel Network).
Do the Big D's watchers count as Intelligence (and do they now belong to the Draco Foundation?)? |
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Sep 30 2003, 12:56 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 746 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 459 |
A decent (if no outdated) reference that can be used is DELTA GREEN and DELTA GREEN: COUNTDOWN.
Also I HIGHLY recomment anything written by Jeffrey Richelson (notably the various editions of THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY). Even if you've dealt with security classifications in real life it's bound to have something you didn't know. ;) |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Sep 30 2003, 03:19 AM
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#62
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Ah, that's right. I always assumed that the DOE was bought by Shiawase during the beginning of the 21st century during the Resource Rush and FedGov selloff, especially given that Shiawase Atomics is HQ'd in FDC, and the nuclear component of the DOE would revert back to the DoD, but the rest... Yeah, Resources. Definitely. NRC and FERC are probably still around, too, though that's not for here. BTW, I thought Broder was first named in Target: UCAS(?). I assume the CD reference (too lazy to look ATM) is in the Ares chapter.
I like THAMINT better (Which is why I suggested it), but majority rules.
The DF ones would probably be Corporate. The ones who went freelance (and survived the whole schism, or whatever it was) would probably be Free Market. |
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Sep 30 2003, 04:33 AM
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#63
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
On a slightly different note, where would the different agencies stand on the corps? Especially somewhere like the UCAS that has split agencies and mandates. The Infernal revenue's investigative arm - mentioned in Corporate Download - would be after them for tax evasion, the FBI could go after them in their counter-intelligence role for the amount of messing around with local governments they do or just plain violations of Federal laws and if it's AA or AAA, then it's effectively a sovreign entity which means the CIA has jurisdiction.
And who'd look after the Matrix? I could see the NSA doing it but they can't spy on US nationals IIRC. And it gets really messy is extraterritorial corporations are controlling subsidiaries that for one reason or another don't conform to the agreed standards and are so not extraterritorial. A major turf war/patchwork in the making. :/ |
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Sep 30 2003, 05:02 AM
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#64
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'd bet the PCC's agencies spends a great deal of time on these two issues... |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Oct 1 2003, 12:33 AM
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#65
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Well, here's my take on it. Megacorporations are effectively treated as sovereign powers and can issue their own money, identification, and may grant effective citizenship. However, in countries such as the UCAS I am not aware of any sort of checkpoint (at least not on the UCAS's end) that exists for when corporate "citizens" leave the extraterritorial grounds of the arcology or whatnot, and UCAS proper. AFAIK they are legally citizens of the country, or possibly the true hardcore "citizens" are SINless--never having received an identity from the UCAS government, and therefore having the same legal rights as a squatter for all intents and purposes. Those people are not taxed since they essentially live "abroad" and do not have the same privileges of full citizens, but simply the rights afforded all persons who are in the UCAS--like the SINless are supposed to have. The problem is that granting citizenship is a sovereign right, which realistically, I can't believe for a second the corps or the countries would want to have for various reasons (even more reason not to piss off the corp. Outside the walls, they're no better than gutter scum in the UCAS' eyes. I re-read CD, and I did not get any indication that megacorps are able to grant citizenship per se, and I think it's more of a sybolic action. Either way, I don't see any reason why the CIA couldn't share concurrent jurisdiction with law enforcement, especially since the extraterritoriality of the corps makes activities inside their property the IC's responsibility as foreign intelligence activity. I think that's why an office similar to the CTC should, and would, exist in the CIA so that IC members in their "foreign intelligence" role, and the FBI in the domestic intelligence/ counterintelligence/ federal investigatory roles and other law enforcement agencies in their investigatory roles can share (theoretically, of course) operational intelligence on Megacorp activity. Given that in many cities the local cops themselves are megacorps, any corruption would probably be handled by federal law enforcement, especially given the interstate/ transnational commerce aspect of their activities and how their influence would be akin to foreign nationals' influence. That would generally make it federal jurisdiction anyway. This is also something that bothers me. I find it difficult to believe that the restrictions on activities against UCAS citizens will exist in 2064 on principle as well as given the events in SR. I figure the biggest problem would simply be granting intelligence agencies effective law enforcement power domestically would be a drain on their resources in their missions directed to foreign threats and activities. As for the Matrix, I don't see why not (and there's enough insinuation re: the NSA in the original Seattle SB to suggest it) the NSA can't spy on UCAS citizens if the law says so. Otherwise, the agency appointed to conduct Matrix Law Enforcement (Someone said the Marshals Service in one of the books with "Matrix" in the title), and/or the FBI (CT/CI); IRS Criminal Investigative Division, Secret Service, etc. (Financial crimes like money laundering, counterfeiting); Immigration and Customs Enforcement; etc. depending on exactly what is the nature of the investigation/intelligence collection. OBTW, UCAS SecDef Michael Broeder was named in the Novatech chapter of CD, p. 71. It was not Ares as I first assumed.
In due time... |
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Oct 1 2003, 03:32 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 10-July 02 From: SLC, Utah Member No.: 2,960 |
I am glad that Flakjacket mentioned the UGB. The new russian version of the KGB. since what would the intel community be like without them?
But no one has mentioned two of my favorite agencies, the IRS and the INS. These two agencies would have expanded their roles by 2061 I am sure, particularly the IRS. With all of the money laundering and the corporate court and special interest money flying through DC the IRS would have to increase their own intel. My favorite Shadowlands character, the Chromed Accountant, was a IIRC IRS agent, and dealt primarily with the criminal element in the financial world. So what do others think? And if there is a canon reference to the Chromed Accountant and his previous employment that would be appreciated. Veracusse |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Oct 1 2003, 04:51 PM
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#67
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Guests |
I honestly feel there is too much emphasis on law enforcement going on here right now. If we wanted, I'm sure we could also go through and describe separately the more than two dozen or so federal law enforcement agencies just in the UCAS. The fact is that there is only one law enforcement agency that matters right here, tasked with domestic intelligence and counterintelligence authority--the FBI.
Last I checked, the topic was the CIA--how do we want to write the article about them, something that still has yet to be decided. And frankly, aside from the rather esoteric legal issue of corporate "citizenship"--which is a concern most directly the province of whomever writes the DO section--this discussion is getting very far off topic. I reiterate that I think there should be five separate sections: DCI and Community Management (including the NSC) Directorate of Intelligence Directorate of Operations Directorate of Science & Technology Directorate of Thaumaturgy I personally would like to take the DCI/CM section. And given the fact that the last few responses (as I am usually unable to post but once in the evening) have taken me well over two hours each to write, I think that writing assignments are all I am going to be concerned with right now because, frankly, I'd prefer to spend my waning amount of free time with that particular section. [Edit] BTW, the reference to The Chromed Accountant was in Corporate Shadowfiles. He was a IRS company man who decided that he would be better off as a runner than as a company man. About IRS CID ICE--Relevant successor to INS Customs & Border Protection (Just in case) Bureau of Citizenship & Immigration Service (Rest of INS) [/Edit] |
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Oct 1 2003, 09:57 PM
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#68
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
I'm not sure separate writings for a same agency (and for different agencies of a same country) will go far. You can't really say what the agents are doing if you don't know the current axis of the UCAS foreign policy and of the people leading the National Security Council. Which are the important topics ? CAS ? Japan ? California ? Aztlan ? NAN ? Terrorism ? Megacorps ? Ares Arms' technology ? Part of the work of the S&Tech Directorate is also directly tied to what the NSA and the NRO are up to. And though a Directorate of Thaumaturgy would be alone in charge for magical research, big detection spells and astral intel gathering, a level of cooperation would be needed for the use of magic "in the field" by the Directorate of Operations. That this cooperation exists, as a joint-office shared by the two directorates, or not, would bean issue with consequence on CIA ops' efficiency. Shortly, you can't write a part without the start of a global view.
To some extent, the Directorate of Administration would be more interesting than the Directorate of Intelligence. The later is a bunch of analysts, period. The former is in charge of internal security and recruitment and training of the CIA official personnel (and then, it also need magical capacities). I have another doubt about the existence of the directorate of Thaumaturgy. First because I always found that magic in the US/UCAS was taken as a new branch of science, and added in school like MIT or A&M. BTW when the CIA made "psychic espionage" attempts during Cold War, it was the S&Tech Directorate who did it. I don't see the CIA creating overnight a new directorate when magic comes back, nor would I see a reason to create one later when the things would be pretty much integrated into the S&Tech-D functionning. That would depends of the CIA history in SR but I only see the need for a full-fledged Directorate of Thaumaturgy if the CIA is really heavy in the use of astral recon and detection spells for intel gathering. There should be as many different approach of the Awakening than there are different agencies. And I don't see the CIA integrating magic that way, but maybe that's just me. |
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Oct 1 2003, 10:56 PM
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#69
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
And Divination and Astral Quests, Horrors and Dragons. Maybe yes, maybe no with the DoT. On the side, I can definitely see the CIA using "astral couriers" as in projecting mages used to ferry information from cover agents with less risk of interception than electronic systems. |
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Oct 1 2003, 11:28 PM
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#70
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the Grid Overwatch Division has great potential as a pan-corporate intelligence agency. unfortunately, most of its operators seem to be egotistical cowboys--even moreso than your average decker.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Oct 2 2003, 01:11 AM
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#71
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Guests |
I definitely see the CIA utilizing magic to such an extent that it would not only demand (as "unique" and special corp/gov't mages are treated) a separate Directorate, but it would absolutely require one because the CIA is still the main intelligence agency and it would benefit them moreso than elsewhere, especially given that the CIA has had an old reputation dating back to the OSS days of it being a rather arrogant and "elite" agency, which would make it so stupendously fitting that magical intelligence would come out of the CIA that it's actually kind of funny (in a warped CD 2.0 kind of way). While I don't doubt that the Defense Department will have its own magical intelligence activities scatter through at least a half-dozen different agencies plus a Assistant SecDef or Undersecretary or something just for Magic itself, as far as civilian magical intelligence goes the CIA would be the most appropriate place to put it because, really, there's no other place to put it and making a new agency just doesn't fit the pattern of agency creation.
Your point about the global view is a good one, and at this point I'm just tossing ideas out based on what I thought the discussion was leading towards. If it isn't, so be it. |
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Oct 3 2003, 01:28 AM
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#72
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I say we keep the DoT and make the flavor text indicate that it is constantly trying to prove its worth to the DCI and the Agency in general.
Can you imagine the budget cost of such a department? Hell, the DoS&T might have wanted it for the increase in budget and others fought for it to stand alone to be more accountable and still others didn't want the DoS&T to have the prestige. Raygun, like the new look of the site except that it doesn't work well with 800x600 view. At the very least I need a scroll bar on the Navigation. Maybe check the browser size and add one for those smaller than whatever you made it for. |
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Oct 3 2003, 01:39 AM
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#73
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
About the CIA, what do people think their attitudes towards covert/illegal operations would be? Would it be like today where they generally shy away from most of it, or reflecting shadowrunners and the times at hand would they be back to the 50's/60's mindset with a vengeance? Since that ex-DCI was on the Scott commission whilst having run illegal ops into the NAN - supposedly without political approval - I'd probably say the latter myself. Plus it makes it easier to use in-game. :)
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Oct 3 2003, 01:43 AM
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#74
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
The CIA ceased being fun after the NSA stole all their really cool people. James Bond apparently can't do shit without his gadgets, or the training to use them properly.
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Oct 3 2003, 01:51 AM
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#75
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
I'm sorry, how is this even partially revelevant to the topic at hand?
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