 conjurers and allies, clarify please |
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 Jul 27 2005, 01:07 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929  |
is there any rule saying that a conjurer cannont HAVE the sorcery skill?
so far as i can see, the conjurer cannot use it, but if he were to summon an ally spirit, the ally spirit would recieve the sorcery skill. however, there is also the stipulation for allies learning skills that states they have the smae limitations as the summoner. only question is does that apply to the sorcery skill since it is an automatic skill? |
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Jul 27 2005, 02:58 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
BBB page 160, under conjurers
"Conjurers can use the Conjuring Skill, but cannot use Sorcery" But you can have the skill. You can use it for theory purposes, but would be a waste. Might as well take a knowledge skill. |
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Jul 27 2005, 03:17 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929 |
would not be a waste if an ally spirit would be able to both have and use it.
rtqf, as i was told in school. :) |
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Jul 27 2005, 04:24 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
The ally spirit would likely have the skill. Wouldn't be able to cast any spells though.
Remember, the ally spirit's initial spell is chosen randomly from the summoners spell list, and any additional spells must be gained by the summoner learning them for the ally. Since a conjurer can't use sorcery, the conjurer can't learn spells, and so can't learn them for the ally either. |
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Jul 27 2005, 04:28 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
Only a group of gamers would determine that the phrase "cannot use the sorcery skill" means "but you can still learn the sorcery skill".
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Jul 27 2005, 04:31 PM
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#6
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
No books handy ATM, but I seem to recall that any Awakened can learn sorcery to use in astral combat. Adepts were specifically mentioned, in fact. I can't recall if this was a 2nd or 3rd ed rule, so if someone has a page reference, it'd be appreciated. |
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Jul 27 2005, 04:35 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929 |
3rd ed, tho i'm pretty sure it was for PHYSADs not neccessarily for aspecteds.
dawnshadow, i'm not after spellcasting, but spell defense. it also brings up the question of the power focus description. in the description, it states power focus dice may be used for spell defense. but conjurers don't get spell defense do they? |
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Jul 27 2005, 05:42 PM
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#8
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Considering that mundanes can make working spell formula it is possible that anyone can learn a spell even without the ability to cast it.
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Jul 27 2005, 05:51 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
No, spell design is separate from learning a spell. You can design a new spell, but you then need to learn it afterward to be able to cast. Odd, but that's how it works.
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Jul 27 2005, 05:57 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 404 Joined: 22-June 05 From: Canada eh! Member No.: 7,455 |
Just remember you cannot use the sorcery skill for spell defense or for any purposes other than academic. Thinking about it further ... it would be more useful to grab magical theory. The rules are pretty clear on the intent of the rule, that if you do not have access to sorcery, then you cannot use it for any of the stated purposes.
spell defence and casting included. |
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Jul 27 2005, 05:59 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
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Jul 27 2005, 06:30 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929 |
Nyxll, the issue is whether or not the ally spirit could use the skill, not the character.
AH, thanks for the extensive collection therein, but nothing about ally spirits in it. |
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Jul 27 2005, 06:43 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
True. I was just trying to clarify a bit about magical skills. In SR3, the concept of possessing Active Skills just for the theoretical knowledge is tossed out the window. Theoretically, you could have a magician with Sorcery and Conjuring but no Conjuring Background, Magic Background, or Spell Design skills-this represents a character who's good at casting spells and summoning spirits, but doesn't know the how or why of it.
The long and the short of it is, I don't think its plausible for a Conjurer aspected magician to learn the Sorcery skill, because they have no ability to apply it at all. Ever. |
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Jul 27 2005, 06:58 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
That's what I thought too. To learn an active skill in SR3, you must be able to use it. |
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Jul 28 2005, 06:33 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
I have played conjurors before and these were the tweaks my GM and I came up with to this exact question.
So that my ally was able to use sorcery I purchased Sorcery Background, the points for which had to come from active skills , not the freebies from Int*5. The ally had no starting spells since I didn't. You teach your ally spell formulaes that you specifically develop for it, not necessary spells that you actually know and use. Which is strange since the skills you are allowed to teach your ally you must know. I'm sure many people will disagree with this but just remember that conjurors are specialists in their field and their allies should be tougher than a full magicians. |
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Jul 28 2005, 11:07 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I agree. Of course, being able to start with one and having nothing better to dump your karma into is pretty powerful in itself. I'd be willing to say that Conjurers get the second power point for an ally free (you still have to pay a point of magic for the first, but the second is free) meaning that you can start out with a force 5 ally, plus a couple extras at character creation. I really have a problem with a conjurer being able to use sorcery (I realize it's your ALLY, not you, but that just means you don't even have to worry about drain). It's cheating. If you want to cast spells and summon spirits, be a full mage. If you want to start with the ability to conjure, and have an ally at character creation that can cast spells or use spell defense, be a Path of the Mage, put all six levels into magic power and there you go. 36 points to create your ally. And as you initiate you can add boost your initiative :) |
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Jul 29 2005, 02:46 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
You can. Astral Combat. |
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Jul 29 2005, 02:50 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
A conjuror gives up access to the Sorcery skill. I take that to include all uses, including astral combat.
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Jul 29 2005, 03:08 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
I'd have to agree with AH. You picked the limitation when you made the character. Sorcerors can't even conjure allies, Conjurer's can't have their allies learn sorcery, or learn it themselves in anything other than a background knowledge sense.
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Jul 29 2005, 03:25 AM
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#20
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
From a purely rules standpoint, the only limitation to having Sorcery or Conjuring is a Magic of 1 or greater. The only exception to this would be the SURGE effect of Astral Sight.
So Sorcerors can have Conjuring and Conjurors Sorcery, just that Conjurors can summon allies with Sorcery. |
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Jul 29 2005, 04:16 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
From a purely rules standpoint, you don't even need the magic of 1 or greater to have sorcery or conjuring... as knowledge skills. Mundanes can have a sorcery knowledge skill and a conjuring knowledge skill (pg 90, SR3), for whatever reason, and burned out mages have these too (magic 0). Conjurers cannot have the active skill of sorcery. They can't use it, and by rules precedent (Pg 160, SR3) magical skills that one cannot use (via burnout and, by extension, aspected-ness) are background knowledge skills. The Ally can only learn skills its conjurer knows (pg 110, MitS), therefore it can learn the background knowledge skill of Sorcery, not the Active skill of Sorcery.
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Jul 29 2005, 05:27 AM
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#22
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Knowledge skills do not have limitations on them per se. Sorcery and Conjuring as Active skills have a requirement of Magic of 1 or more.
The paragraph you refer to refers to burnouts. The burnout cannot further improve(learn) any magical Active Skill. The conversion from Active to Background applies to burnouts. If you had the ability to use the skill but lost the ability to use(as well as the ability to learn the spell via the skill description), then the Active skill is converted to Background. Now, the Conjuror(or Sorceror) does not have the ability to use the skill (and they did not lose the ability like the burnout), they are different from the burnout as they still have the capability to learn the skill as they still have a Magic of >0. Also they did not lose the ability to use the skill, they never had it in the first place, therefore the precedent does not apply to them. There is nothing in the books that states that you may not learn an Active skill you cannot use as long as you are able to learn it. |
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Jul 29 2005, 05:36 AM
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#23
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
so if allies defer to reaction, there's really little point to getting them any kind of combat skills then. So you're saying that you could (theoretically) create a Force 8 ally, have NEVER useda gun yourself, and hand it a panther assault cannon, and it would get 8 dice to roll? That just seems wrong. I think defaulting to reaction should only be for 'melee'.
[ Spoiler ]
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Jul 29 2005, 07:03 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
These are the relevant passages, emphasis mine. That Sorcery requires a Magic of 1 or greater to learn as an Active Skill is irrelevant to the fact that Conjurers CANNOT learn Sorcery as an Active Skill. Why do the burnout's Active Magical Skills revert to Background Knowledge Skills? Because he can not use them. Why can't a Conjurer learn Sorcery as an Active Skill? Because he can not use it. The Conjurer lacks the ability to use Sorcery, just like the burnout. The precedent applies, and Conjurer's Allies get no Sorcery. And the book is quite clear on learning Active Skills you cannot use, you learn them as Knowledge Skills.
Note that 'perform' and 'use' are synonymous in this context, and remember:
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Jul 29 2005, 01:49 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 23-December 03 Member No.: 5,929 |
Sharaloth,
you're spending a lot of time and effort checking out page references for skills, but you need to be aware that the "sorcery" an ally spirit has, is a power, not a skill. it merely uses the summoner's skill rating as a numerical reference for the power's level. mits p. 109 further supported by the fact that under skills, a difference is noted between the sorcery skill and others. and most supportive is the wording on p.118 mits regarding free spirits and powers: "free allies alwayshave this power" |
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