Profesionalism, ...or lack thereof... Options

[Kagetenshi]

[nezumi]

I'm surprised these self-respecting gun bunnies don't have anything small enough that they can smuggle it in. There's a reason long coats and hold-outs are listed in the equipment section. I'm even more surprised that someone decided to leave the site altogether when he couldn't get in.

But the question is what was done (or not done) that was unprofessional.

The entire team loses points for not scoping out the place beforehand. They also lose points for not arriving early enough that they could have made other arrangements to get weapons in. Then they lose points for trying to get EVERYONE in (but not so many on that one.)

The gunbunny in question loses points for not being prepared. No hold-out? No melee skills? Not enough time to sneak something in? No etiquette skill or fake registration papers? Who's fault is that? Not the Johnson's.

Then he tries to intimidate the bouncer? Now he's crossing from unprofessional to just straight out stupid. Bribe, sure. But intimidation gets the cops called, and NO ONE wants that.

Going outside and hanging around was probably the smartest thing he did at that point. What was he trying to contribute by being in on the meet? What could be contribute by being outside of the building? Not taking the job was his call, but probably a silly one. The Johnson picking a place where no weapons are allowed is a GOOD thing. That means he's limited in what he can pack too, and a gunfight with holdouts leaves a whole lot more survivors than one with LMGs.

*sigh*

[Talia Invierno]

[Kagetenshi]

[Edge2054]

IMO a fixer worth his salt should have some idea of who he's setting the team up with, his reputation lives and dies by drek like that. If he starts to garner a rep for having his runners capped by organ leggers his career, not to mention life, is probably going to end up very short. Of course if the team in question screwed him at some point in the past then it's a whole other ball game.

In Mr. Man's scenerio, I'd look for another GM as well, unless of course the situation was warranted some how. We'd fragged someone over, or our fixer told us, "Hey chums, I don't know about this one, but the fragger's offering a lot of yen so I figured I'd give ya the opprutinity if ya wanted it," etc. *edit* Some sort of either flag that should set off alarms or damn good in-game reason for the set up to be so sound. Granted meeting in a place that's so open is risky to begin with, but a certain level of implied trust is inherent in the fixer/runner relationship. If these things are present, then it's our own damn fault. If not, the GMs just trashing our character sheets. *end edit*

Point being, the idea that a fixer won't put at least a little work into his work is just innane to me. At least any decent fixer. I figure that should be the exception, rather then the rule. I'm not saying take your fixer's word for it, do your own legwork and check these fraggers out, show up at the meet early and prepared, scope the place out long before hand if at all possible, and if you're not comfortable with the locale, set up the meet in a different one. But your fixer should at least have some idea who he's dealing with and be 90% sure he's not getting the team fragged... unless of course he's doing it on purpose. The same blood runs the opposite way as well, if the team goes to a meet and frags up a decent J contact, I would black ball them if I was their fixer.

[arcady]

Another phrasing for professionalims is 'gamer geek with an attitude about their PC's -kewl- factor' - at least, as it was described in the first post of this thread.

It's the sort of player who always needs shades and trenchcoat with his back to the wall and an image of 'The Matrix' running in his mind in order to play...

[Birdy]

Guess what, I disagree with most of Kagetenshis opinions :D

[mmu1]

Our team must have better fixers than average, then... Because they generally don't set up meets for us in places where we'll have to go through an embarassing (for everyone concerned) amount of scrutiny.

My character always comes armed to meets - heavy pistol (with a decent concealability and in a concealable holster, to minimize potential problems), a very high concealability light pistol, and generally also shock gloves - worn or pocketed, depending on the type of place and type of client. If he's asked to turn in his weapons at the door, he does so - it helps that the doormen in our games generally tend to be polite when dealing withe professionally acting heavily wired runners. Of course, if he ever does get invited to a meet at a 4-star restaurant, he's just going to leave the guns in the car and wear a nice suit...

The team also has a pretty decent surveillance capacity, so most of our meetings are well checked-out, and are conducted with rigger overwatch...

[Wiz In Red]

Catch this, we had a meet with a J who called himself Niles something or other...our people looked at each other and kinda grinned and grimaced...new J = more expendable than usual...By the end of the evening, we witnessed his employer politely and calmly shoot him right between the eyes. He hadn't been authorized to hire anyone, and he strained his company's relationship with another company...It was a cherished moment, but I do so miss Niles now and again.

I should note it was the first job our group was "hired" for, so the GM was feeling benevolent in introducing us to the game system (most of us were first timers).

[Clyde]

Maybe these gun bunnies should get cyberguns. A cyber heavy pistol can't be taken away, after all.

And shouldn't this trust stuff go the other way, too? The Johnson has to trust the runners to do his job - and not to talk about it. He could be damaged in lots of ways - pissing off the violent criminals he's hiring through petty exercises of personal power that are purely temporary is an extra problem he doesn't need.

If the Johnson is cool about meeting, he's liable not to get shot at in the first place. After all, the runners don't get paid unless they play along. If they want to rob him, he can just hand over the money and then have the runners killed later. Maybe he only knows you through your fixer, but your fixer knows who you are. Think about this from the fixer's point of view - "The team I recommended for this job just went out and murdered their potential employer. Unfortunately, that guy worked for Ares and now my house is going to get hit with a Thor shot unless I make it VERY CLEAR that I had nothing to do with it. Thus, I will definitely be sending the home addresses of those runners to Ares right away."

Really, if the Johnson has all this power why the hell would he worry about a couple of pistols? He needs to unpucker and just get down to business if you ask me.

[Birdy]

[mmu1]

[Birdy]

[Nikoli]

Though this brings to mind something else.
Just how does a Johnson gain a rep?
The Name Mr. Johnson protects them, in theory, from being known. There is no mechanic in the game to tell one Johnson from another prior to a face to face meet (even that is unreliable with magic)
In fact there is no way to know that each and every Johnson you have ever worked with isn't the same guy with different, powerful disguises.

It's not like there is a Urban Resource Management Local 4122 that they have to become members in in Seattle that allows runner and fixers to know what each one is like and if they are worth the time time and risk to show up for.

[Birdy]

[Velocity]

[Nikoli]

that is much better than the traditional Mr. johnson idea set in the first three editions. Though they could have just said that they are referred to as Mr. Johnson outside of the meet and in the text but the actual alias changes form Johnson to Johnson.

[Birdy]

[Velocity]

[mmu1]

[Talia Invierno]

Maybe make a distinction between the corporation being out to get you, and never working for that corporation (and possibly others, word-of-mouth) again?

[Velocity]

[nezumi]

Seems like J anonymity could go either way.

If the Johnson is purely anonymous, working through a series of fixers and virtual meeting places, he and his corp are safer. But the price is going to go way up (it's far pricier for a virtual meeting place, much less a chain of fixers, than the back room of your local drinking establishment.) The quality of runners will go down (sounds like a perfect backstab situation for me) and loyalty will diminish (how can you be loyal to someone you don't know?)

The guys who are willing to put themselves out on the street will get rep. Even if his pay is worse, it's safer and that alone means less work on the runner's side. I'd prefer to work for a Johnson who has a reputation on the line for $20k than for one who doesn't for $30k, everything else being equal.

Generally, the fixers in my game try to smooth things out on all sides. He tells as much as he can tell, even if it's that he can't tell anything. If the Johnson knows what the runners are like and what they're good at, he'll feel more confident that he's getting a good deal. If the runners know the guy has a reputation the fixer can back up (or the fixer has never seen him before, or even that the guy has a rep for betrayal) the runners will trust that fixer twice over. They'll refer more people to him and they're more likely to buy his stuff and follow his advice, maybe even put their own necks out for him once or twice. And if any side finds out the fixer knew an important detail he intentionally left out that cost the job or lives, he loses that business permanently.

Trust is someting earned, not freely given, and its worth more than gold. A fixer no one trusts is out of the job. A runner no one trusts is relegated to distractions and knee breakings. A Johnson no one trusts gets the desperate and insane. Doesn't work well for anyone.

[Yoan]

I don't know. I usually play low-key SR campaigns-- where the PCs begin as little above petty gangers in the food chain. Mohawks, tattoos and tattered armour jackets are in abundance. I find it incredibly boring, to begin as 'professional', high runners with Wired Reflexes 3 and a strong, strict set of rules/morales/guidelines. It all depends on the campaign. If the Jonhson is a top of the line Ares exec then ('Gunderson' VS. 'Vigore', for Genesis players), yeah, he won't be hiring low-class 'runners with no reputations or, uh, decent hair cuts.

[Kagetenshi]

I'm working on a longer, more in-depth reply, but I wanted to say a few things right quick:

Nezumi: loyalty is a non-starter. Corps have in-house teams and company men. The only reason the job will hit the street in the first place is if anonymity is more important than loyalty. The Johnsons aren't looking for it, the runners aren't giving it.

Talia: that's not a good distinction. I see no reason a corp that could even vaguely be described as "professional" would refuse to work with runners that offed one of their Johnsons, or for anyone else to. If they betrayed the Johnson they'll probably still work with them—they'll just get the Ares guy from Corporate Download's replacement. Only if they get a reputation for killing Johnsons at the meet for no particular reason will they be flat-out not dealt with, IMO. There's nothing to be gained and quite a bit to be lost any other way.

~J