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Adam

Sep 26 2003, 01:48 PM

Post #26

Prime Runner

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QUOTE (DigitalMage)

Characters can still have depth and originality - choose a load of flaws, but then just ignore the build points you would get for them.

I agree. While I think in every way; speed, ease of use, adaptability, the Point System is superior to the Priority System, edges and flaws as a game mechanic are something that are only useful for campaign play with consistent GMing.

TinkerGnome

Sep 26 2003, 02:11 PM

Post #27

Dragon

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QUOTE (Adam)

...I think in every way; speed, ease of use, adaptability, the Point System is superior to the Priority System...

I agree on those points, but there is one area where the Priority System does outshine the point system. That is, of course, the speed and ease of checking a character to make sure it is built properly. Under the priority system, you can quickly tell if a character is right or wrong (or at least if you suspect it enough to look it over in detail) by a simple glance.

Of course, the same could be done with the point-based system by using a special character sheet, a "build sheet" or something along those lines where you could note how many points you spent on each section and do tallies. In fact, that kind of thing would be even better than the Priority system.

Possibly, you could make the statement "Characters are generally built on the Priority System. Players who wish to build a character with the points system may do so with 12x points by filling out a Point Based Character Generation Tally sheet. This sheet must be with the character at all times and characters without one will be required to conform to the Priority based character generation system."

Simply require players to download and print the PDF of the file (or have them available at cons along with record sheets and char gen guidelines) to have the character. You could quickly tell how many points were spent on what, and even see what was bought arrayed before you. I'll do a mockup and post it somewhere in a bit.

TinkerGnome View Member Profile	Sep 26 2003, 02:42 PM Post #28
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706	Here is a mockup of a sheet which could be used for the aforementioned purpose. It does nothing to address issues of munchkinized characters, but it (or something similar) would help make it easier to check characters over. [edit]It looks horrible without the SR fonts installed (France in particular) ;)[/edit] This post has been edited by TinkerGnome: Sep 27 2003, 11:20 PM

KarmaInferno View Member Profile	Sep 27 2003, 04:47 AM Post #29
Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699	I'll have to agree with the comment about taking flaws without taking the points for the flaws. If you're all fired insistant on doing the role-play thing, is it such a burden that you don't get a few edge points for being a roleplayer? Personally, I'd be vaguely insulted if someone felt the need to "pay me off" for roleplaying. I played a paraplegic character in VS. I took no points for it. I had a blast playing the character.

Deacon

Sep 29 2003, 08:15 AM

Post #30

Moving Target

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QUOTE

Point #1. Your game, your rules. I just find it limiting and against the nature of the world Fasa created and Fan Pro inherited. You've disallowed the majority of the factors that make SR enjoyable to me.

I see. Well, as someone asked before, did you happen to enjoy Shadowrun before they released the Companion? Was it Edges & Flaws that suddenly changed Shadowrun into a whole new gaming experience for you? Because I have to say, Edges & Flaws seemed to me to be a sop to the munchkins who wanted that little extra boost to give them the edge over the opposition. :spin:

QUOTE

I prefer characters with depth and originality and both the points system as well as the introduction to edges and flaws to be one of the main reasons I enjoy spending weeks creating characters vs. the 1 hour roll 'em up character gens of other games.

And edges & flaws, and the point-based system, give depth and originality? I always thought that came from choosing a unique concept and giving it enough depth and flavor that the character's motivations and personalities were evident in the player's roleplaying. The whole '30 questions' thing, when gone through, tended not to be enough... I liked using character development tools like 'Heroes of Tomorrow' to flesh out things like what the character's parents were like, how many siblings he had and what happened to him when he was six. Writing the character's background could take weeks, let alone getting to the actual mechanics of making the character. :rotate:

QUOTE

Point#3. As an official spokesperson of FanPro by running this official gaming program, you should be more careful before asserting your house rules on the system. You have your right to opinions on the edges and flaws offered in the book, but to take it to this forum is not very business-savvy. You are, in effect, stating to anyone reading that the Shadowrun Companion is a bad book to purchase and tends to throw games into the abhorred "munchkin" category.

The funny thing is, this is the same point I argued with Bitsy about (on the mailing list) for the inclusion of edges & flaws... but apparently FanPro doesn't have a problem with the exclusion of the book. And why should they? There's plenty of other books which they can use Missions to market to the gaming public. There's the main sourcebooks, of course, and then since Missions will be using (and to a certain extent, defining) the canon plotline, the new sourcebooks (like Shadows of Europe) will be in demand as well. I think the exclusion of just one book might send a certain message... but as the saying goes, any publicity is good publicity. FanPro might get a few sales from people curious as to why the book is disallowed in the Missions setting. ;)

TinkerGnome

Sep 29 2003, 01:42 PM

Post #31

Dragon

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QUOTE (Deacon @ Sep 29 2003, 04:15 AM)

I liked using character development tools like 'Heroes of Tomorrow' to flesh out things like what the character's parents were like, how many siblings he had and what happened to him when he was six.

What's that?
[edit]Never mind. Two seconds on google gave me the answer.[/edit]

Mr. Man

Oct 2 2003, 05:21 AM

Post #32

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Blitz)

No harm though...I don't like your restrictions so I will not participate. Simple as that.

OH NO! WHATEVER WILL WE DO?! :please:

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

As an aside: I spend weeks creating characters that don't use edges and flaws, alternate generation systems or any of the other stuff in the companion. Good backgrounds don't write themselves and can get quite lengthy when you figure in the character's family, friends, mentors and anyone else who had a hand in making the character who he is.

bitrunner View Member Profile	Oct 2 2003, 12:35 PM Post #33
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915	now, now... Blitz is entitled to his opinions...he is fortunate that he has a lot of Shadowrun play opportunities and can be selective in finding the type of game he wants. that is his perrogative (sp?). Many do not have such opportunity, however, and hopefully Shadowrun Missions will be the catalyst they need to get back into the game. As I said, I only hope that he does not "badmouth" the campaign or force his viewpoint on other potential players - each must make their own choice. For DigitalMage, Mr.Man, and others, welcome aboard! :D

Buzzed View Member Profile	Oct 3 2003, 09:30 PM Post #34
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 348 Joined: 20-June 03 Member No.: 4,782	I am looking forward to the online play. When can I submit my char for approval? :love:

bitrunner View Member Profile	Oct 4 2003, 06:24 PM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915	Online Play: well, i (God willing) may end up moving sometime around the first of the year, and i'm also planning on getting married...so to be honest, the first online game probably won't be until March or April time frame... i'm currently checking out some of the options, such as OpenRPG, AO-HELL messenger chats, etc...as well as just developing a custom solution...once i get some finalists, we'll probably put up a poll to see what everyone would feel comfortable with...for instance, if i'm still working where i am now, my firewall blocks AOL/AOL Messenger, so that solution would be out...

bitrunner View Member Profile	Oct 5 2003, 09:10 PM Post #36
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915	Some people have asked about where character creation guidelines would be posted. All official information will be posted on the Shadowrun website at www.shadowrunrpg.com I am working with Adam right now on the website - i'm finalizing the info, and Adam is getting ready to make the mods - hopefully this month. I am also going to try to put something in Games Unplugged magazine, and post information on dumpshock and other online sources...

Mr. Man

Oct 7 2003, 04:59 AM

Post #37

Moving Target

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QUOTE (bitrunner)

For DigitalMage, Mr.Man, and others, welcome aboard! :D

Thanks!

Have you considered sanctioning what the RPGA calls "classics" within the S:M program? The GMs for many of the independent SR events at GenCon seemed overworked and I'm sure if someone were to provide them with tested, con-sized "modules" complete with characters they wouldn't complain...

toturi View Member Profile	Oct 16 2003, 02:31 AM Post #38
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	OK, not bad. No SR Comp but no biggie. Still plenty of RP opportunities... I think I'll join...

Rouge View Member Profile	Oct 22 2003, 09:43 PM Post #39
Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,756	Moving eh? Now what are the odds of Rich moving close to me so I can bug him? Well, in either case congrats and good luck. Not quite the subject for an opening post as I had thought, but other than the rumor that WotC dropped VS because Rich would not allow Edges and Flaws I couldn't think of anything to talk about. Ok it's not really a rumor, just something I thought of when I read the page on what Shadowrun Missions is. Only Rich's friends and other VS players will understand the pains he went through to remove them, some even appreciate it. Brian aka: Rouge "Let the Nuyen earning begin!" PS: Why does the spell checker have to learn the word 'nuyen' ??

Deacon

Nov 1 2003, 09:31 PM

Post #40

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Mr. Man)

Have you considered sanctioning what the RPGA calls "classics" within the S:M program? The GMs for many of the independent SR events at GenCon seemed overworked and I'm sure if someone were to provide them with tested, con-sized "modules" complete with characters they wouldn't complain...

Since SRMissions is part of the Commandos Program, I'm sure that the independent, stand-alone missions the Commandos already use will be counted for in some way.

NeO_ZeN View Member Profile	Nov 2 2003, 03:37 AM Post #41
Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 21-August 03 From: Gold Coast, Australia Member No.: 5,528	@bitrunner Our group has been utilising the Paltalk program for audio (and video if you have a good enough connection) and text, while using Netmeeting for its whiteboard feature for maps. At first we had a few problems, with people talking over each other, but once we got used to it we've run 6+ hour games comfortably, with the GM 2,500 kms away. Gotta love technology. :cyber:

bitrunner View Member Profile	Nov 3 2003, 02:43 PM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915	Thanks! I'll check into it... as for the Commandos and Shadowrun Missions: There is some cross-pollenation there. however, SRM is a separate program - it is the campaign setting. The Commandos are the official outrider program for FanPro, so any arbitrations or signatures by a Commando will be treated as though I myself had made the action. They have the option to run SRM missions just as anyone else, and they will get credit for doing so - but if they run a SR scenario of their own making, it CAN NOT be used with SRM characters. Only scenarios which have passed through the SRM approval process and posted as SRM missions will be counted. Along the same thread, i'll mention once again that you DO NOT have to be a Commando to run SRM events. however, if you are not a Commando, then you will not receive any "bennies" for running the event other than that glowing feeling you get inside by running the game and helping the campaign and giving your players the chance to play and grow (plus anything you can weasel out of a convention staff, such as free admission to the con for running x events, etc)...

Fortune View Member Profile	Nov 4 2003, 12:23 AM Post #43
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I just want some clarity on one question about these official Shadowrun Missions scenarios. Are these to be made available free of charge (i.e. as pdf files, or whatever) to people that cannot attend the conventions?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 4 2003, 07:31 AM Post #44
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I'll probably sign on, as I'm a Shadowrun addict, but add my name to the list of those griping about the exclusion of SRComp. Perhaps it's just psychological, but characters created with the priority system have always seemed too cookie-cutter to me; "oh, you're another character with A resources, B attributes, C skills. Go stand in line with the others." (rearrange to taste). That and I have a long-standing personal love for the 25-point ¥650,000 total :) As for uniqueness in character concept, so you make your backstory unique. That's great. That's not going to come out in a four-hour session with people you've never met. In my experience one-shot games get reduced to their most basic elements; your characters are unique because of what they are and what they can do, not who they are. So your streetsam is really a streetsam with a conscience who helps out at the homeless shelter after-hours; unless they roleplay Total Pacifist (and thus create the same problems you complain about when you forbid the flaw), they're just Kid Stealth without the cool legs, as far as anyone's concerned. Anyway, I would whine and gripe some more, but it's not going to get changed and I'm on board anyway, so I'll be content with this much. ~J Edit: Keep in mind when investigating alternative options for online gaming that some of us don't use Windows. While you may or may not have to support, say, OS/2, I'd certainly recommend Mac and Linux friendliness, for what my recommendations are worth.

DigitalMage

Nov 4 2003, 11:21 AM

Post #45

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

I'll probably sign on, as I'm a Shadowrun addict, but add my name to the list of those griping about the exclusion of SRComp. Perhaps it's just psychological, but characters created with the priority system have always seemed too cookie-cutter to me; "

Although I use the Build Point method exclusively myself, I can't agree that the Priority System leads to Cookie Cutter characters. I mean this isn't Classes we're talking about a player could spend those skill points on any type of skills, at any level, and the resources can be used to buy loads of stuff from SOTA cyber to tricked out and rigged vehicles, and those Attribute points cna be allocated in any number of ways.

If you think that it is only Edges and Flaws that bring uniqueness to a character you are obviously missing out on the variety that can stem from the restof the system.

Bitrunner - will we get a chance to look at the SR:M writer guidelines anytime soon. As a Commando I have written several scenarios and in future if I am to write anymore I would like to also make them SR:M compatible so that I could submit them for approval.

Cheers!

bitrunner View Member Profile	Nov 4 2003, 02:07 PM Post #46
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915	OK, a couple of answers here: Cost: None - all scenarios will be free of charge and will be PDFs available for download. Also remember that these scenarios CAN be played at home - there are just a few changes in accounting, such as Commandos cannot claim home games for credit. Platforms: hey - i'm a computer geek - i still have a C-64 and an Apple IIe! That's one of the reasons why AOL IM is winning right now - it is for all 3 major OSs (including cell phones!), has built in dicebot, and lots of people already know how to use it and have done online games with it... Guidelines: i'm finishing them up now, along with guidelines for GMs and Event organizers. They will be posted to the web when i finish them and i can get with Adam to post them - he's waiting on me right now :(

Fortune

Nov 4 2003, 11:35 PM

Post #47

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (bitrunner @ Nov 5 2003, 12:07 AM)

Cost: None - all scenarios will be free of charge and will be PDFs available for download. Also remember that these scenarios CAN be played at home - there are just a few changes in accounting, such as Commandos cannot claim home games for credit.

Thanks for the answer. These will be available for d/l on shadowrunrpg.com?

And a few more...

Am I correct in my thinking that even if a character only participates in the games at home (as opposed to at an official event), they will still be equally viable and official as those that are run exclusively at conventions? If so, how will this work? How will cheating be discouraged, if not totally prevented? Will there be some kind of central character registry to keep tabs on characters?

Buzzed View Member Profile	Nov 5 2003, 08:40 PM Post #48
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 348 Joined: 20-June 03 Member No.: 4,782	What I think bitrunner has been saying is that home games do not count officially for anything.

bitrunner View Member Profile	Nov 5 2003, 09:06 PM Post #49
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915	not really - we're still working things out... we hope to eventually have a player registration area - the guys over at Commando HQ were excited about doing something, but right now i'm more concerned about getting everything up and running. we encourage to foster the belief that we're all adults here - if people are going to cheat, they'll find a way to cheat. let's just hope they never sit down to play with me, or when i look at their character and discover that they've been cheating, they'll find that the scenario has been subtly altered with a few 'lasers'...actually, you'd be surprised at the LACK of cheating that will probably occur. at least under VS, there were few actual "cheaters". most had characters that violated the rules because of miscommunications, poor gm-ing, and other things that weren't clearly spelled out... if people want to run a SRM game at home, that's fine. the point is that only SRM characters can be used. Let's look at it from the various prospectives: the player: plays a legal SRM character. that character can only be played in SRM games. technically, it is a legal SR character and could be played in any game, but if it is used in other than an SRM game, any karma/loot awarded cannot be imported into the SRM campaign. ie if you just want to use that character to play for "funsies" and not change anything on the character, that's fine... the GM: the gm can run the SRM games no problem. all the players must be using a legal SRM character. you cannot then write your own scenario and run it with the SRM characters as if it were a legal scenario. if you are a Commando, you do not get credit for running this as an 'event'. for everyone's edification, Commandos are representatives of FanPro, and receive credit for running events at gaming stores, conventions, and special events. These are public games where they are trying to increase the popularity of the game system (battletech or shadowrun). hosting a game with your four regular players isn't a promotional game - it has to be open to the public and a legitimate event.

Fortune View Member Profile	Nov 5 2003, 10:39 PM Post #50
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	My point is that, say I start playing with a group that doesn't attend conventions. We make characters according to the SRM guidelines, only pulling them out for use whenever a new SRM scenario is made available. In a few years, I then move to a more convenient locale and start to become a convention regular. Would my (2-year-experienced, but totally legal to SRM standards) character able to be played in those conventions?

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