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> limited stats?, my guess? pool limits = mods work better
Mongoose
post Aug 11 2005, 04:26 PM
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There's been some mention as to stats having caps, or being very hard to raise past a certain point at game creation or later. Some folks asked why, thinking this made no sense...
To me, it makes a lot of sense if you look at the fundamantal nature of dice pools in a fixed TN system, vs how things worked with a variable TN. A character with a huge dice pool simply is not affected by modifiers (bonuses or penalties) to that pool nearly as much as one with a smaller pool is. If pools regualarly rage up to 20 dice (which would be a PITA to roll) then mods would have to be really huge pool mods for the situational mods to matter.
A TN mod affects every die in a pool, and allows for big and small pools to be more equally affected, but those have thier own problems and obviously have been ruled out for SR4. Honestly, I think SR3 should have had more mechanics to keep TN's from ranging so widely; TNs of 2 and 6+ were much to common, and huge / tiny dice piles threw results off.
I'm glad to see SR4 is adressing this issue right off the bat by keeping stats in line with the mods that will affect them.
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Taki
post Aug 11 2005, 04:36 PM
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keeping stats within the range where the rules are consistent is the best way to have a system that work ...
Going from 6 to 8 dices to throw could have more impact in sr4 than in sr3 as you say.
(Or the opposite ?)
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Shadow
post Aug 11 2005, 04:37 PM
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Initially I am against any artificial limit on stats or skills. By artificial I mean the game says, "you cannot start the game with any skills at 6 regardless of the points you have". I don't mean that SR4 does that, I ma just explaining my self.

However, it can be away to ensure that everyone is on the same ground when they make their character, despite any rules-fu they may be using. I am not thrilled about not being able to increase stats past 6 (racially modified).
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 11 2005, 04:40 PM
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well for your attributes I easily can see a cap, a person can only be so strong. Skills seems a bit strange but enough systems do it that its not too off for me. Still yeah I suspect your correct about the reason. My only concern is that its been suggested that 6 is the cap, or a 12 die pool without racial and equip mods. 12 dice doesn't sem like much to play with considering its the unmodified max when taking into account possible penalty mods. Its not too long until I get to see it, so I'll find out then, There's an entire thread devoted to this but basically after a few penalties does it make a difference if your max man or min skill man, do tasks just become flat out impossible, do you always get at least a 1 die shot.
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Shadow
post Aug 11 2005, 05:06 PM
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Well I belive I read here that you can spend Edge to get one dice to roll. But after you run out of edge you don't even get that dice.

Mathematically there is a point in SR3 that if the TN is high enough it doesn't matter how many dice you have, you are not going to do it.

It seems like that point is a lot closer in SR4.
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wagnern
post Aug 11 2005, 05:08 PM
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Every game, wether D&D, Champions, Shadowrun, has a power range that it works best in. Kind of like how your cars engine gives the most horse power in a cirtian rpm range.

Now as far as mods go, SR4 may be slightly less mod heavy (I know I am exagerating, but at times I have felt: If my charictor is chewing gum, what does that have to do with my pistols skill? And what does it matter if it's watermellion or spiriment? But than agian, they give some nice detail to the game. . .)

Perhaps some of the 'to hit' mods will be placed on the to hit roll, and some will be moved to the "dodge" roll? I don't know. (I guess I will find out the 18th)

I have high hopes for SR4. I know D&D is not big with some of this croud, but I remember when 3rd ed was coming out. We were nervous, and shure that they were destroying our beloved game (No T.H.A.C.O.s!! how can you have D&D without THACOs??) But it turned out great. I personaly think 3rd ed is the best yet. Even with this 3.5 BS, I am a fan of the game and have fun playing. So I am crossing my fingers, and hoping that SR4 takes the heart and soul of Shadowrun and brings it up to date.

Change is hard and scarry. (Heck, I remember when front wheel drive cars were scarry, but now I love them and would never think of having another rear wheel drive agian)
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Lindt
post Aug 11 2005, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (Shadow)
Mathematically there is a point in SR3 that if the TN is high enough it doesn't matter how many dice you have, you are not going to do it.

And hence why I dont like the new system. At least before you had a CHANCE to do the near impossible. We all had those freak 30+ rolls come up before. You dont anymore.

Rumers are that there are imposed caps on skills and stats. Which again, I dont like. I swear, the more I hear about the system the less and less I like it. I may have to throw my gauntlet in with Kage and help with sr3r.
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L.D
post Aug 11 2005, 07:49 PM
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Maybe you should wait and see if the rumours are really true first?
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Kyoto Kid
post Aug 11 2005, 08:58 PM
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QUOTE (wagnern)
Change is hard and scarry.  (Heck, I remember when front wheel drive cars were scarry, but now I love them and would never think of having another rear wheel drive agian)

Yeah, I had the privilege to drive the Olds Toranado (the first FWD car produced in the US) after it came out. Without that transmission hump, it was like driving while sitting on your living room sofa. Rarely got stuck in the Wisconsin snow & ice though what with that big block V8 directly over the driving wheels.
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Kyoto Kid
post Aug 11 2005, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (L.D)
Maybe you should wait and see if the rumours are really true first?

I'm willing to put my, what is it 38.95(?), down to check it out.

Heck I am a longtime veteran of the old AD&D (even the original "three little books" D&D) & likewise, had trepidations about 3.0. As mentioned in an earlier post, I find 3.0 is a vast improvement, particularly where classes such as the Monk (my favourite), Ranger, and Cleric are concerned.
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Lindt
post Aug 12 2005, 01:24 PM
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But just remeber, druids got nerfed untill 3.5.

Hey, Im going to be at gencon, Im going to buy the nifty limited edition, and then there is a rather reasonable possibility I will put it back on my shelf and pull my trusty sprial bound copy of sr3 back out. Thats the way things go.
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kylleran
post Aug 12 2005, 03:43 PM
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Keep in mind that the Edge attribute can do rather drastic things to the dice you are throwing.
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Cain
post Aug 12 2005, 10:05 PM
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Look, the "cap" doesn't sound so bad, if you think about it. Right now, you can't start with an unmodified stat above 6, either-- you depend on racial mods and magic/cyber/bio augmentations to get above that.

What worries me is the fact that people have mentioned "other factors" that limit your high stats. That, to me, sounds awfully like they're going to say: "You can only have 1 or 2 stats at 6, regardless of points". We really don't need another arbitrary limit like that.
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Ellery
post Aug 13 2005, 01:20 AM
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It's sounded to me like you can't get above that cap through gameplay, either. That makes things rather dull--out of the box, your character will be as strong as the strongest person in the world (right up there along with every other runner who values strength).

One could think of a quote from The Incredibles that summarizes this scenario.
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Cain
post Aug 13 2005, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE (Ellery)
It's sounded to me like you can't get above that cap through gameplay, either. That makes things rather dull--out of the box, your character will be as strong as the strongest person in the world (right up there along with every other runner who values strength).

One could think of a quote from The Incredibles that summarizes this scenario.

That's a possibility, I realize; but without any further info, it's hard to tell for sure. I'm treating that possibility as an assumption rather than a likely direction, right now-- if I had to describe the current SR chargen systems to a new player, I'd probably say everything caps at 6.

Given the way the SR4 FAQs have been written, I'm inclined to think of it more as an overgeneralization than an ironclad rule... right now.
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L.D
post Aug 13 2005, 07:40 AM
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Besides, you could always make a houserule.
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tisoz
post Aug 14 2005, 04:34 PM
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This makes me wonder if/how the Increase Attribute spells will work. They could be some of the most powerful spells in the game, granting extra dice to all kinds of rolls. Will they exist at all? Will the drain code rise? Will they be rewritten as a threshold?
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blakkie
post Aug 14 2005, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Aug 14 2005, 10:34 AM)
This makes me wonder if/how the Increase Attribute spells will work.  They could be some of the most powerful spells in the game, granting extra dice to all kinds of rolls.  Will they exist at all?  Will the drain code rise?  Will they be rewritten as a threshold?

No more powerful than cyber/bioware that boosts Attributes.

One of the Origins players mentioned something about a 6/9 attribute limit. Didn't get an answer on whether that was a natural limit/augmented limit. If there is an augmented limit it would make sense to be an across the board cyber/bio/magic limit.

P.S. The 24 dice total for a roll limit is damn high. There has to a lot more sources of dice that we haven't really heard to reach that. Unless you'd only see that limit hit by creatures like dragons with mid-teens attributes and double digit skills.
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Ellery
post Aug 14 2005, 09:09 PM
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Stat 9, skill...6? 7? If adepts can buy dice for skill tests, or magicians can use foci and they add dice, that's another 7 perhaps? We're up to 23 already. One more for a bonus for situation, and we hit 24.
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blakkie
post Aug 14 2005, 09:26 PM
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In the past typically 'ware augmentmentation to attributes didn't work for magic (via Magic Pool). So you'd have to come up with serious foci** plus some other source not yet specified like co-casters in whatever ritual has become or aiding from spirits/elementals. Hard to say how you have to spend those dice too, if you have to split into drain.

The highly focused adepts might get there with tricked out attributes and skills, if they can gain skill pool dice with powers up that high. That would make those powers very, well powerful.

I'm curious whether some 'ware adds skill points too, or maybe they primarily add skill points (with some adding points to these new groups of skills) to exceed the 7 point limit.

** Wonder if foci addiction, or whatever form foci limits now take, made it to the BBB.

EDIT: If the 24 dice limit is applied after ALL dice count modifiers including environmental ones such as visibility, or the -1/3 wound boxes, then healthy high level runners operating under ideal circumstances would start hitting it fairly regularly, but under very poor conditions rarely.
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SL James
post Aug 15 2005, 12:06 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 14 2005, 10:46 AM)
P.S. The 24 dice total for a roll limit is damn high. There has to a lot more sources of dice that we haven't really heard to reach that. Unless you'd only see that limit hit by creatures like dragons with mid-teens attributes and double digit skills.

It probably reflects something like a maxed-out Troll Body-based skill test.

Body (11) + Mods (3) + Skill (6) + positive Qualities for skill+attribute (2) = 22

and there's probably some other dice mod available somewhere.
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