Global warming and flying cars.

Global warming and flying cars., On some George Jetson type of sh*t.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 01:55 PM Post #76
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	It is the case if all you're interested in normalizing for the comparison is that they both be cars. A two-seater trunkless econobox will indeed meet or exceed the mileage of a sedan-style hybrid. ~J

nezumi View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 03:39 PM Post #77
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	I suspect you can't make two comparable sedans, one hybrid and one not, of comparable gas milage. In this case, my vehicle is a nissan sentra, and his is a toyota prion I think. Both are four door and seat five, although I believe his is slightly larger. You could, of course, make a one seat clown-mobile gas engine and compare it to a hybrid suburban assault vehicle and come out with comparable gas mileage uses, but really, that's just a wee bit silly and doesn't solve anyone's problems, nor do I believe that was the intent of the original post.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 03:43 PM Post #78
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I've heard that claim a number of times and it usually comes down to an unstated difference in comparison like the one that I mentioned (though it's sometimes several people down the chain). This may be different, but that's my guess for what's happening here. ~J

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 04:23 PM Post #79
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	You know, solar power COULD, theoretically, be used easily enough to augment more traditional sources of energy. Glittering glassy skyscrapers have how much space on them that's not window space? Put in photovoltaic collecotrs, then. They'd make neat stripes around or up the building, depending on how you built it. You can also put mini-sunjuice-farms on top. I wonder how feasable that would be... Also, if you could dome a city, you could probably line the dome with the things, too... Oh well.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 04:26 PM Post #80
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Actually, check out Bank of America's "Green" scyscraper project in New York City, that has all sorts of new efficiency tech to reduce grid power consumption.

hyzmarca

Aug 15 2005, 04:43 PM

Post #81

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 15 2005, 08:43 AM)

Congratulations on introducing irrelevant information and drawing a totally spurious hypothesis from it.

No thermometers necessary.

(I overestimated how far back we have, but it's still a meaningful time period for analysis.)

~J

What we have here is a difference of opinion on what resolutions could be considered accurate. Personally, I find even annual resolutions to be wanting in precision. Without being able to take into account daily temperature fluxuations is it impossible to get a complete picture.

Of course, I would measure weights to the nearest picogram if I had the equipment for it, so my standards of percision may be somewhat extreme.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 05:27 PM Post #82
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	The reports I've seen on the current market hybrinds say they their gas mileage isn't quite up to the quoted specs (their actual mileage is roughly 85-90% of the actual quotes). Assuming a very vell designed totally gas powered automobile (say a two door hatchback) gets 40 miles to the gallon. A hybrid car (ligth sedan?) gets 60 miles to the gallon. Assuming a lifetime car mileage of 100,000 miles (may be a bit excessive) the hybrid car saves around 830 gallons of gas. Now, the question, efficiency wise, is that amount of saved gasoline worth the extra manufacturing effort (i.e. the hybrid car probably required more manufacturing, thus more polution produced there). As the hybrid cars become more efficient (in the 80+ mpg range, or actually twice as good as gas powered cars) and if they are able to achieve sufficient economies of scale, then they'll be worth something, pollution wise. Right now, they are esentially a feel-good purchase. (Though the purchase of hybrid cars today probably encourages the R&D of hyrid cars tomorrow...)

Kagetenshi

Aug 15 2005, 05:38 PM

Post #83

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

The reports I've seen on the current market hybrinds say they their gas mileage isn't quite up to the quoted specs (their actual mileage is roughly 85-90% of the actual quotes).

I've had reports of people getting the quoted mileage or slightly more, but it involves significant changes to driving style (slower acceleration/deceleration, etc.).

QUOTE

Assuming a very vell designed totally gas powered automobile (say a two door hatchback) gets 40 miles to the gallon. A hybrid car (ligth sedan?) gets 60 miles to the gallon. Assuming a lifetime car mileage of 100,000 miles (may be a bit excessive) the hybrid car saves around 830 gallons of gas.

Excessive? 100,000 seems very low…

QUOTE

Now, the question, efficiency wise, is that amount of saved gasoline worth the extra manufacturing effort (i.e. the hybrid car probably required more manufacturing, thus more polution produced there). As the hybrid cars become more efficient (in the 80+ mpg range, or actually twice as good as gas powered cars) and if they are able to achieve sufficient economies of scale, then they'll be worth something, pollution wise. Right now, they are esentially a feel-good purchase. (Though the purchase of hybrid cars today probably encourages the R&D of hyrid cars tomorrow...)

Depends on what you're transporting. If the answer is one to two people, you're right, the sedan probably isn't that much less polluting (or perhaps somewhat more). If the answer is three or four people with luggage, you're saving (one car vs. two or two trips). It will depend heavily on who is driving and what their needs are.

~J

nezumi View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 08:05 PM Post #84
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	On the subject of hybrids: Making a hybrid that gets 250 mpg Notice, it's also battery powered to the point that you actually plug it in (unless you roll it down a few hills first, I suppose). In general, on a marathon drive through the country, hybrids and gas powered cars should come out just around equal. For people who drive 30 miles a day, most of which is stop and go, hybrids will have a distinct advantage.

Kyuhan View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 08:31 PM Post #85
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 4-September 04 Member No.: 6,628	The Yahoo! version.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 15 2005, 08:53 PM Post #86
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Note that that vehicle doesn't get 250 miles to the gallon, it gets 250 miles to the (gallon+total electricity added from the power grid). Hybrids have their largest advantage in constant low-speed travel. IIRC steady travel at about 40-45 MPH will result in the gas engine deactivating until power levels run low. Slow acceleration minimizes fuel use, slow deceleration maximizes gains through regenerative braking (and, in the case of stoplights, increases average velocity at the time the light goes green—if you can avoid fully stopping at the light, you can save a lot of acceleration. This helps with ordinary vehicles as well.). ~J

Adarael

Aug 15 2005, 09:31 PM

Post #87

Deus Absconditus

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QUOTE

Of course, in Shadowrun, the answers are easy. You get a mage to whip up a sustained version of Lightning Bolt and Quicken it onto your power mains (or use Magic Fingers to turn a generator, or whatever... there are plenty of ways), and just suck your power out of the Astral or whereverthehell spells are powered from. Sure, maybe it'll trash the place, but no one lives there besides spirits!

Actually, there's a couple of good reasons why this doesn't happen in canon. I looked into it for an IC project a character worked on.

1) The number of magicians with Quickening is, globally speaking, very low. And people tend to charge very high for their 'essential energy' (i.e. Karma expenditure).
2) Creating a permanent version of a spell that creates energy that can be harnessed results in prohibitive drain unless the net effect is very, very small.
3) A non-'permanent' (in terms of game-mechanics 'duration') spell that is sustained via quickening or such and is stationary in location causes background count. Eventually, this count seems to build to the point where mana warping occurs,* thus creating an astral hazard whose effects may eventually bleed over into the real world.**

* References to this include certain bits in Aztlan, MitS, et cetera. There are no rules for it, but ICly this seems to happen.
** Again, no mechanics, but the emotional resonance of the area turns 'darker', rather like the crappier areas of Aztlan, and some of the more spooky areas of the Arcology - though the Arco areas were just that way because of Deus' experiments.

Vaevictis

Aug 15 2005, 11:59 PM

Post #88

Moving Target

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QUOTE (nezumi)

The problem with 'clean' sources is, when they're effective, they're generally very space or price inefficient.

Give it time. As fossil fuels become harder to get and more and more scarce with consumption, the two forms will achieve price parity. It may take a long time, but it will eventually happen.

QUOTE (nezumi)

To run New York on solar power, they'd have to take up about 60% of the island in regards to space constraints. ... and it's not like the surrounding NY/NJ area has giant tracts of land just begging to be harvested either.

Actually, it's not as bad as you think. In sky-scraper prone areas, there's probably *more* vertical surface area (on buildings) available for photovoltaic windows than there is actual acreage on the ground; all you have to do is get them installed and hooked up to the grid (which is, of course, easier said than done).

On the lower-lying buildings, you'd probably install solar cells on the roofs, and on higher ones, you'd probably install wind turbines.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Aug 16 2005, 05:21 AM Post #89
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	You can use the elemental sustaining service (where the elemental loses all services but sustains for days = force) to keep your magic power plant going. Grow plant based magical materials in the garden, turn them into elemental summoning materials, use them to make electricity. No 'ongoing' karma costs involved. If SR3 kept the remote service rules for elementals, putting a fire elemental on the remote service of 'boil this pot of water' (eventually used to turn steam turbines) then you don't even need to learn the 'magica electricity' spell.

nezumi

Aug 16 2005, 02:36 PM

Post #90

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

QUOTE (nezumi)

To run New York on solar power, they'd have to take up about 60% of the island in regards to space constraints. ... and it's not like the surrounding NY/NJ area has giant tracts of land just begging to be harvested either.

Actually, it's not as bad as you think. In sky-scraper prone areas, there's probably *more* vertical surface area (on buildings) available for photovoltaic windows than there is actual acreage on the ground; all you have to do is get them installed and hooked up to the grid (which is, of course, easier said than done).

Good point, it's worse than I think.

Remember, we don't care about surface area, we care about surface area with direct sunlight! New York's jagged skyline makes solar energy incredibly inefficient, because buildings keep casting shadows on each other. A solar panel might be perfectly placed at 8am and in full darkness at 10. With the exception of spots atop sky scrapers (and perhaps down the sides of a few), the ROI is quickly halved as buildings block each other out. Wind power, however, becomes MORE efficient, since you have natural wind tunnels along streets. The only problem there is the fact that you're talking about putting giant fans above busy streets, which cause some major safety concerns.

Jrayjoker

Aug 16 2005, 02:45 PM

Post #91

Neophyte Runner

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QUOTE (nezumi)

Wind power, however, becomes MORE efficient, since you have natural wind tunnels along streets. The only problem there is the fact that you're talking about putting giant fans above busy streets, which cause some major safety concerns.

What are a few decapitated, minced, chopped and pureed, levitating mages among friends? Of course, if I had to wash my car I'd be P-Oed.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Aug 16 2005, 06:26 PM Post #92
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	It doesn't require fans outside. you can have shafts running through new buildings as they are built that channel wind along chimney like stuctures turning turbines. updating older building would be cost prohibitive.

nezumi View Member Profile	Aug 16 2005, 06:31 PM Post #93
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	Except the wind in a chimney is nothing compared to the wind along those NY streets. Unless you mean you'll have big funnels coming out of the buildings into the street. Keep in mind, the bigger the fan, the more power you get. A fan small enough to fit in a chimney will barely light a light bulb.

Kyuhan

Aug 23 2005, 10:12 AM

Post #94

Moving Target

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Something cool to check out from keelynet.com:

QUOTE

Invention to run water in a car via ZPENERGY.COM
Denny Klein uses an alternative fuel source once thought impossible. He says people still can't believe him when he reveals his liquid fuel. "water. Water and electricity; it's an electrolysis process." Klein just patented his process of converting h20 to hho, producing a gas that combines the atomic power of hydrogen with the chemical stability of water. "it turns right back to water. In fact, you can see the h20 running off the sheet metal." Klein originally designed his water-burning engine for cutting metal. He thought his invention could replace acetylene in welding factories. Then one day as he drove to his laboratory in Clearwater, he thought of another way to burn his hho gas. "on a 100 mile trip, we use about four ounces of water." Klein says his prototype 1994 Ford Escort can travel exclusively on water, though he currently has it rigged to run as a water and gasoline hybrid. Members of Congress recently invited Denny Klein to Washington to demonstrate his technology. Now his company is currently developing a Hummer for the US military that can run on both water and gasoline. So far, his water-powered engines have passed all performance safety inspections. more at http://hytechapps.com/.... (With some hunting I found the patent as issued March 15, 2005, at 6,866,756 Inventors: Klein; Dennis - 66 Pelican Pl., Belleair, FL 33756 - JWD)

Nikoli View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 01:58 PM Post #95
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	To be fair, I'm not talking about a house sized chimney, for scale, imagine an array of passenger elevators arranged in a 4x4 configuration for 16 total. a shaft about that size would allow for some hellacious wind when taken to 50 some odd stories.

Cray74

Aug 23 2005, 02:49 PM

Post #96

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kyuhan)

Something cool to check out from keelynet.com:

QUOTE

"water. Water and electricity; it's an electrolysis process."

Except for the hype on the page, what's news about that? It's a system that splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, then burns them in a hydrogen-oxygen torch.

It's not a WATER torch or water fueling the car, it's burning hydrogen. Hydrogen cars (with hydrogen from oil or water, your choice) are not new at all. The real trick - which this wiz-bang invention doesn't address - is storage of sufficient hydrogen to make a decent hydrogen-fueled car.

QUOTE

Then one day as he drove to his laboratory in Clearwater, he thought of another way to burn his hho gas. "on a 100 mile trip, we use about four ounces of water."

Yeah - and how many gallons of gasoline?

Geez. "HHO gas." If the hydrogen and oxygen are actually mixed during storage, that's a fireball waiting to happen.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 03:19 PM Post #97
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Maybe now we'll finally see real crashes becoming like Hollywood :grinbig: ~J

nezumi

Aug 23 2005, 03:36 PM

Post #98

Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;

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QUOTE (Cray74)

Geez. "HHO gas." If the hydrogen and oxygen are actually mixed during storage, that's a fireball waiting to happen.

Don't be silly. It says right in the article, "the stability of water"! How could it possibly be dangerous? And since they said it on the intraweb, it MUST be true.

Cray74

Aug 23 2005, 05:31 PM

Post #99

Running Target

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QUOTE (nezumi)

QUOTE (Cray74 @ Aug 23 2005, 09:49 AM)

Geez. "HHO gas." If the hydrogen and oxygen are actually mixed during storage, that's a fireball waiting to happen.

Don't be silly. It says right in the article, "the stability of water"! How could it possibly be dangerous? And since they said it on the intraweb, it MUST be true.

I'm sure after the "HHO" gas is done energetically reverting to water, it will be very stable. :)

Nikoli View Member Profile	Aug 23 2005, 05:37 PM Post #100
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	doesn't the vehicle have a special set of chambers for that express purpose, AKA the internal combustion engine? HHO gas, isn't that steam?

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