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> New Update!, SR4 Sample Char: Weapon Specialist
Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 05:52 AM
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Check it out

Looks like one of the nicer pieces of artwork I've seen for the book so far. There are some other interesting points.

Language Skills - Arabic - N?
Starting Nuyen - 4d6 + 4*100?
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Sabosect
post Aug 17 2005, 06:00 AM
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Built on 400 BP. To be honest, the character's a piece of drek compared to our current runners. To get anywhere near the style of my games, I'll probably have to use 600 or more BP.

Edit: At an average of 20 BP per stat, this character has 3s and 4s. That's not acceptable.
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Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 06:02 AM
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Because of course we're all professionals on how the scale of power operates in the new 4th edition!
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Sabosect
post Aug 17 2005, 06:04 AM
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We'll, they're ignoring something the previous edition allowed for: Some people are just naturally that damned good at something, in addition to having lots of weapons and armor.

And if you live on the street, most of the people you will be threatened by are not going to be average in abilities.
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Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 06:06 AM
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I havn't had enough to drink to write something here potentially embarassing to myself and highly insulting to you, but I have had enough to drink to giggle to myself and write this post.

Lets just leave it at that.
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Adam
post Aug 17 2005, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE (Nerbert)
Because of course we're all professionals on how the scale of power operates in the new 4th edition!

Oh, really, give it a rest. There's no need or reason to jump all over people expressing discontent. Accept that some people disagree with you, correct factual mistakes if they're made, and don't worry about the rest.
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JBlades
post Aug 17 2005, 06:08 AM
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QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 17 2005, 12:52 AM)


Language Skills - Arabic - N?

N=Native is my guess.

Also, it seems like 1 BP = 5000Y.
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Bandwidthoracle
post Aug 17 2005, 06:15 AM
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This looks a lot more in line with how my group played low power.
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Clyde
post Aug 17 2005, 06:16 AM
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A lot of system hints come out here -
Dodge is an active skill.
"Firearms Skill Group" and "Close Combat Skill Group" make it look like they may have collapsed the skills back together like SR2.
The art for this one is totally awesome. As an aside, why isn't this chick on the cover? I swear she'd get way more players into the game :D
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Sabosect
post Aug 17 2005, 06:16 AM
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Actually, I'm assuming SR world when I say that. This character has average stats and average abilities. I can see them as a shopkeeper, but as a runner I don't see them living long enough to justify the cost of building them as a character. And, being a weapons specialist, they would certainly be more proficient with shooting guns than making armor. The entire character is designed to where the flavor text outright lies about their combat skills.

Considering the fixed TNs and the average possibility of getting a 5, I would say that this character's skills are mostly a waste of points if they face anything that I suspect this system would define as challenging. The lucky edge for this character isn't a blessing, but a requirement. I'm sorry, but I'm beginning to see a DnD-style run progression with this. I can also see my typical first adventure outright killing a group of runners before they even have a chance to get to the actual challenge.

Still, I'll give it a better examination when I have more information to work on. But as it stands, I'm seeing the earlier complaints about this forcing runners to be street-level punks only as beginning to gain weight.
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mfb
post Aug 17 2005, 06:21 AM
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meh. the street-level thing is more of a GM call. if you want a higher-end game, you just add more points. the only thing that's changed there is the default power level of the characters.
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Connor
post Aug 17 2005, 06:24 AM
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Hey, you have a mild allergy to seawater and not one, but two katana's on her gear list...

Although the skill group thing sounds interesting.
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Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 06:24 AM
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Well, lets look at what we already know. All of this is in theory, she rolls 8 dice at a firearms attack. Agility 4 + "Firearms Skill Group (????)" 4. So, provided that its under favorable conditions, i.e. no penalties or bonuses, and the threshold is 7 or less, which seems likely to me, she can burn 8 dice for two automatic successes and knock someone with average body down by 20% of their health. If it were me, I would burn four for one automatic and roll 4 to try to get them into wound penalties.

But who knows how armor and the like works.
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Clyde
post Aug 17 2005, 06:26 AM
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Do we know that all skills cost the same? Armorer might be stupidly cheap or Firearms Skill Group so expensive that a 4 is worthwhile. It's also possible that there's been world change. A shopkeeper might have Firearms Skill Group of 0, a Security Guard might have it at 1 (with an Agility of 3 instead of 4), and so forth. "Average Stat" and "Average Skill" of 3 looks like they mean "average for a shadowrunner." Or not. Who the heck knows? :|
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SL James
post Aug 17 2005, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect)
And, being a weapons specialist, they would certainly be more proficient with shooting guns than making armor.

I'd assume, and this is a major assumption, that Armorer is the equivalent of Firearms Group (B/R).
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Sabosect
post Aug 17 2005, 06:30 AM
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Considering the average person starts off with 6 dice to play with for a skill, I'm betting that the average Threshold is 4-5. A challenging threshold would be 8, really challenging 10, majorly challenging would be 12, and superhuman would be 13+.

The problem is that we end up with a system where it is harder to magically pull off the impossible. No little old ladies lifting up trucks to save their grandchildren, no matter if it is an event known to happen in real life or not.

Basically, the system screws the players.
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Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 06:33 AM
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Actually, its a well known fact that a system that promotes randomness screws the players in the long run just by the simple fact that they tend to live longer, go more places and do more things then anyone else in the world. So they're more likely to be on the short end of a lucky roll then Bob the Archvillian. Bob's minions are going to be shooting at the players a lot more then the players are going to be shooting right at Bob.
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Sabosect
post Aug 17 2005, 06:34 AM
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QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 17 2005, 01:29 AM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 12:16 AM)
And, being a weapons specialist, they would certainly be more proficient with shooting guns than making armor.

I'd assume, and this is a major assumption, that Armorer is the equivalent of Firearms Group (B/R).

Please excuse the double post, if this is one.

It depends. The word "armorer" can refer to a person who makes guns or a person who makes armor. Typically, most people separate them into weaponsmith and armorsmith to prevent confusion. In this case, I suspect the term applies to both. The knowledge skills probably determine the specialization.
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Wireknight
post Aug 17 2005, 06:35 AM
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She'll average two hits on any given melee or ranged combat test, given her statistics. If the average threshold for combat actions is 3 or higher, she will not succeed at them often and thus would be classifiable as "below average".

As far as the Armorer skill goes, I'd call Firearms Group B/R "Gunsmithing" if it were me. Still, that does seem like a fair assumption to make given the character's focus. I agree that the N probably refers to Natural, which likely means that her skill is probably equal to one of her attributes, likely Logic, when measuring it is necessary.
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Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE (Wireknight)
She'll average two hits on any given melee or ranged combat test, given her statistics. If the average threshold for combat actions is 3 or higher, she will not succeed at them often and thus would be classifiable as "below average".

You're forgetting about the rule "If your dice pool is greater then the threshold you may burn four dice for one automatic success."

It wasn't in the FAQs but it was mentioned someplace on the forums in the previous months.
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JBlades
post Aug 17 2005, 06:38 AM
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A thought on the math: Regarding her attributes, if levels 1-3 were 5 BP each, and going from 3 to 4 (which she's done 3 times) costs 15 BP, that would add to 180 BP, and would explain why most of her stats are 3s...

What do you think? (rip away, it's just a theory)
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Sabosect
post Aug 17 2005, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 17 2005, 01:33 AM)
Actually, its a well known fact that a system that promotes randomness screws the players in the long run just by the simple fact that they tend to live longer, go more places and do more things then anyone else in the world.  So they're more likely to be on the short end of a lucky roll then Bob the Archvillian.  Bob's minions are going to be shooting at the players a lot more then the players are going to be shooting right at Bob.

Actually, not true. As a DnD player, we dealt a lot with randomness. Certain options also existed to increase it. The problem is that these options always screw the players. Why? Most of the enemies are one shots. They're most likely going to die anyway. However, it increases the change the players die as well.

However, that's not how it screws the players in this case. In this case, it screws them because it allows a GM to more easily kill them off in annoyance. In SR3, if I set a TN of 30, there is a chance the guy with one die can make it. In this case, if I set a Threshhold of 10 and that sample character must make the shot, everyone dies.
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mfb
post Aug 17 2005, 06:39 AM
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edit: what sabosect said.
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beepeearr
post Aug 17 2005, 06:42 AM
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Forgot she was an elf.
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Nerbert
post Aug 17 2005, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE (Sabosect)
In this case, it screws them because it allows a GM to more easily kill them off in annoyance. In SR3, if I set a TN of 30, there is a chance the guy with one die can make it. In this case, if I set a Threshhold of 10 and that sample character must make the shot, everyone dies.

That is a good point.

There are a couple ways of getting around that though. First of all, Edge allows for the possiblity of shots in the dark by allowing rerolled sixes. Secondly, the team can run away from whatever obscene creature is giving them a threshold of 10. Finally, a good GM wouldn't do something like that without a good reason. Granted, not all GMs are good, and not all of them are reasonable.
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