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New Update!, SR4 Sample Char: Weapon Specialist

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Nerbert

Aug 17 2005, 09:39 PM

Post #201

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

attacker rolls attrib+skill vs 5 - dice for diffrent modifying elements.

the weapon have a fixed starting damage + 1 pr hit on the test.

defender dodge roll.

armor reduce said damage - the weapons armor penetration (yes check it out, there seems to be a stat for that now. its there on the char sheet).

defender then most likely rolls damage resistance on the remaining damage. damage reduced by 1 pr hit on test.

It seems unlikely to me that defenders get damage reduction, and then two resistance rolls vs. only one attack roll.

hobgoblin

Aug 17 2005, 09:47 PM

Post #202

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

It comes from this:

QUOTE

A. Basic success tests are made rolling your dice pool against a fixed target number of 5. The target number never changes. So each 5 or 6 that you roll equals a “hit.” Success is determined by the number of hits rolled. More difficult tests require a higher number of hits to succeed.

hmm, sounds more like something i would use for a "fix the door lock so we can get the hell out of here" kinda test. set the number high and then let the person do x number of tests, each eating away Y time.

hobgoblin

Aug 17 2005, 09:49 PM

Post #203

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QUOTE (Nerbert)

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 17 2005, 04:34 PM)

attacker rolls attrib+skill vs 5 - dice for diffrent modifying elements.

the weapon have a fixed starting damage + 1 pr hit on the test.

defender dodge roll.

armor reduce said damage - the weapons armor penetration (yes check it out, there seems to be a stat for that now. its there on the char sheet).

defender then most likely rolls damage resistance on the remaining damage. damage reduced by 1 pr hit on test.

It seems unlikely to me that defenders get damage reduction, and then two resistance rolls vs. only one attack roll.

im guessing that the dodge test will be a all or nothing thing. as in, roll above the number of hits the attacker got no take the full attack. as dodge is now a active skill rather then a way to use combat pool, i dont think the outcome of the test will carry over to the damage resistance test.

Serbitar

Aug 17 2005, 09:53 PM

Post #204

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QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 04:05 PM)

Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably.

Calculate the number of dice you need on average to hit TN 30.
Compare it to 36. Have fun.

Most math (if not all) you did in this thread is naive fallacy.
If you really think that rules should protect you from your GM then you should go somewhere else and not play any RPGs.

@Ellery: Your calculation of darkness hit chance is correct, but you forgot to calculate one thing: You only calculated the chance to hit reduction and not the overall damage reduction.
The Super Ki Adept may still hit msot of the time, but he might kill outright in good light and barley scratch in darkness.
This of course depends on the model how damage is graded up/down by good/poor hits.

It all comes down to the overall "good light vs darkness" performance. Not just the chance to hit.

Ellery

Aug 17 2005, 10:06 PM

Post #205

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QUOTE (Serbitar)

You only calculated the chance to hit reduction and not the overall damage reduction. This of course depends on the model how damage is graded up/down by good/poor hits.

Of course--but I don't have the damage model handy yet, so I left it out. In any case, hitting is always better than not hitting, so the relative rate of hitting between the different people is still an issue, even if the darkness does matter.

It's quite likely that the damage model will accentuate the problem, since the models that I can think of that help fix it would cause other problems that are serious for the intended number of dice as demonstrated by this archetype, or would run contrary to the stated design goals.

Sabosect

Aug 17 2005, 11:24 PM

Post #206

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QUOTE (Serbitar)

QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 04:05 PM)

Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably.

Calculate the number of dice you need on average to hit TN 30.
Compare it to 36. Have fun.

Most math (if not all) you did in this thread is naive fallacy.
If you really think that rules should protect you from your GM then you should go somewhere else and not play any RPGs.

Well, it would help if you didn't pull the fallacy of editting what I said. As it is, your point doesn't stand out that well when compared to the full statement.

QUOTE

Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably. This is also ignoring one item the FAQs say, in that some modifiers affect the TN. So, that Threshhold of 12 can also come with a TN of 6. Pretty impossible to hit. Especially if you only have 6 dice to do it with.

Now, we already know my comments about TN are wrong. However, that doesn't mean you pull the logical fallacy of automatically ignoring everything once I bring up the TNs. Here's how you should have looked at it:

QUOTE

Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably. Pretty impossible to hit. Especially if you only have 6 dice to do it with.

Now, let's examine this post logically.

It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes.

Now, comparing the chances of getting a 30 with one die to getting 12 successes with 6 die comes out to the 30 being more likely than the 12, based on current information. In fact, the 12 successes are pretty much impossible.

Now, let's look at something else: The comment about protecting the players from the GM. A logical conclusion would be that this person, who is themselves an admitted GM in a game that has frequent player death, is not a fan of the possible abuses this system creates, in that it creates numbers that are impossible to reach. This, combined towards earlier complaints, suggests someone who favors a more balanced and adaptive system and is simply pointing out problems they see with it. What little there is to suggest this player may want a game that protects them from GMs is balanced out by the fact they are a GM themselves and it is the only area of the book in which the character complains about potential GM abuses, in spite of the fact the player can easily complain about the point system being utilized by GMs to force their players into playing the weakest characters imaginable.

Now, your final item: You claim the math made is naive. Well, I don't claim to be a math wiz, but at the same time I ask you to prove that statement. Mainly, start by finding where I did actual math at. The one area you already brought up is invalid, even though you will find it again earlier in this thread, because it has already been dealt with.

Sabosect View Member Profile	Aug 17 2005, 11:45 PM Post #207
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741	Okay, something else I noticed: This sample character is on page 104. If the same general builds as SR3 are involved (even with minor changes), then this is at the end. That means the sameple characters start in the late 80s.

SL James View Member Profile	Aug 17 2005, 11:47 PM Post #208
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Page 89, IIRC the TOC.

Sabosect View Member Profile	Aug 17 2005, 11:49 PM Post #209
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741	It is. I just double-checked. This is the last one before the Skills section. I think this is a sign the builds will be approximately the same.

SL James View Member Profile	Aug 17 2005, 11:51 PM Post #210
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Sailboats, my ass...

Ranneko

Aug 18 2005, 12:26 AM

Post #211

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes.

I think you mean pretty damn low.

While you can hit 30 with a since die, its a 6^5 chance to do so on a single die.

You then mentioned that you need 36 dice to reliably get 12 hits for a 12 threshold test.

Can you see how these things make you look like you are being foolish.

Because the statement that you need 36 dice to reliably pass a 12 threshold test is kind of silly, when you need 7776 dice to reliably get a single success at TN30.

Your comment of it being impossible on with only 6 dice still stands though.

Kesh

Aug 18 2005, 12:37 AM

Post #212

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

QUOTE

This is a Jack-Of-All-Trades character (as far as combat goes)... and you're pissed because she's average at everything?!

Of course she's average! She's not specializing in anything, she's trying to be capable of using any weapon under the sun! She's not going to be an expert at anything that way. :?

Actually, if she were a jack-of-all-trades character, she'd have something to allow her to hack as well. She's a character that specifically specializes in weapons. Thus, why she's called a weapons specialist. The thing that gets me is that, as a weapons specialist, she's below par.

You misread my statement. I said she's a Jack-Of-All-Trades with regards to weapons. Meaning, she specializes in using every weapon under the sun, making her inherently average with each weapon.

As an aside: damn, you folks post lots of stuff in the afternoon. :D

Sabosect

Aug 18 2005, 12:41 AM

Post #213

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QUOTE (Ranneko)

QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 18 2005, 10:24 AM)

It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes.

I think you mean pretty damn low.

While you can hit 30 with a since die, its a 6^5 chance to do so on a single die.

You then mentioned that you need 36 dice to reliably get 12 hits for a 12 threshold test.

Can you see how these things make you look like you are being foolish.

Because the statement that you need 36 dice to reliably pass a 12 threshold test is kind of silly, when you need 7776 dice to reliably get a single success at TN30.

Your comment of it being impossible on with only 6 dice still stands though.

Actually, that portion about the number of dice needed to get it reliably is part of a conversation at the time. Several items were brought up about the reliability of getting certain results under the new system. Everyone was ignoring the possibility of reliability under the old system simply because it is not important. It's not the fact of reliability of getting that is important under the old system, simply because any number short of 60 is believably possible and how much the numbers varied. In this system, reliability on a result is God.

My whole point with it was simply to show how easy it is to set a number no one can achieve with the Threshhold system. My comment on how many dice are required to get a reliable result was to show how easy it is to use that number as an impossible or unlikely number against players for their entire career. You could still do it under SR3 on certain numbers, but at the same time it's not exactly as difficult for a person to get a 20 or 30 in a skill as it is under this system to get 36 dice to use on a test.

Now, all of this is using current knowledge. I'm hoping they revamped the Karma system to reflect the changes, but I doubt it.

And, actually, I meant the odds. Wasn't paying full attention at the time. But, your correction is also right.

Sabosect

Aug 18 2005, 12:44 AM

Post #214

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QUOTE (Kesh)

QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 11:49 AM)

QUOTE

This is a Jack-Of-All-Trades character (as far as combat goes)... and you're pissed because she's average at everything?!

Of course she's average! She's not specializing in anything, she's trying to be capable of using any weapon under the sun! She's not going to be an expert at anything that way. :?

Actually, if she were a jack-of-all-trades character, she'd have something to allow her to hack as well. She's a character that specifically specializes in weapons. Thus, why she's called a weapons specialist. The thing that gets me is that, as a weapons specialist, she's below par.

You misread my statement. I said she's a Jack-Of-All-Trades with regards to weapons. Meaning, she specializes in using every weapon under the sun, making her inherently average with each weapon.

As an aside: damn, you folks post lots of stuff in the afternoon. :D

You're right. I did. Happens from time to time.

Blacken View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 12:48 AM Post #215
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 10-August 05 Member No.: 7,548	All of the math can be boiled down to this. In SR3, the implausible is remotely possible. In SR4, there is a great potential for the implausible to become the impossible. And I for one don't like it.

Kesh

Aug 18 2005, 01:02 AM

Post #216

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

You're right. I did. Happens from time to time.

No harm done. Just thought I'd clarify. Though, given the tangents this thread has run off in, I'm not sure there was much point. :P

Sabosect View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 01:04 AM Post #217
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741	Meh. I prefer to focus back seven pages on something I was wrong at than continue to be wrong.

Wireknight

Aug 18 2005, 03:08 AM

Post #218

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QUOTE (Nerbert)

QUOTE (Wireknight @ Aug 17 2005, 01:35 AM)

She'll average two hits on any given melee or ranged combat test, given her statistics. If the average threshold for combat actions is 3 or higher, she will not succeed at them often and thus would be classifiable as "below average".

You're forgetting about the rule "If your dice pool is greater then the threshold you may burn four dice for one automatic success."

It wasn't in the FAQs but it was mentioned someplace on the forums in the previous months.

... you do realize, if that is done, that her chance of achieving greater successes (she'll average 2 and potentially get 3, or 1, or none) is being traded for a guarantee of less successes (2 with no chance of more)?

"Well, yeah, she could roll her 8 dice and average 2 hits, rarely succeeding at tests with threshold of 3 or higher... but I can fix that by sacrificing all her dice for 2 hits, thus guaranteeing she will fail if the threshold exceeds 2! I win! Oh, wait..."

Nerbert

Aug 18 2005, 03:13 AM

Post #219

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QUOTE (Wireknight)

QUOTE (Nerbert @ Aug 17 2005, 01:37 AM)

QUOTE (Wireknight @ Aug 17 2005, 01:35 AM)

She'll average two hits on any given melee or ranged combat test, given her statistics. If the average threshold for combat actions is 3 or higher, she will not succeed at them often and thus would be classifiable as "below average".

You're forgetting about the rule "If your dice pool is greater then the threshold you may burn four dice for one automatic success."

It wasn't in the FAQs but it was mentioned someplace on the forums in the previous months.

... you do realize, if that is done, that her chance of achieving greater successes (she'll average 2 and potentially get 3, or 1, or none) is being traded for a guarantee of less successes (2 with no chance of more)?

"Well, yeah, she could roll her 8 dice and average 2 hits, rarely succeeding at tests with threshold of 3 or higher... but I can fix that by sacrificing all her dice for 2 hits, thus guaranteeing she will fail if the threshold exceeds 2! I win! Oh, wait..."

You burn four dice for and roll the rest. With a pool of 7 you're not even really harming your average doing it.

Wireknight View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 03:27 AM Post #220
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,118	Yeah, and if the threshold is three hits, you're banking on her ability to score two results of 5 or higher on her remaining three dice. I wouldn't bet on success with odds like that.

Nerbert View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 03:31 AM Post #221
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 442 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Pennsylvania Member No.: 6,280	See, I don't know how threshold works. I was under the impression that only successes greater then threshold counted as hits, but that sacrificing dice nets you a free hit. Kage, in another thread, says this rule might even be made up completely by someone else and that I just adopted it as factual.

Cain View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 05:48 AM Post #222
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178	Now, for some more fun with math... Our Character has spent 26 build points on Resources, and gained 130,000 :nuyen:. That indicates that the Resources cost is a flat 5000 per point, although this might just be a coincidence. Skills: She has spent over a third of her allocation on Skills, and all but two of them are 3 or less. The skill group costs might be more expensive; but inless there's a huge difference, there should still be more and higher skills on this sheet. That means the skill costs are through the roof, even at the lower levels.

Ellery View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 06:06 AM Post #223
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298	Go back and look at my post here. I already worked all this out. Skill groups cost 10bp per point, regular skills cost 4bp per point. And yeah, the 5k = 1bp is pretty obvious.

mfb View Member Profile	Aug 18 2005, 07:29 AM Post #224
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	no, Nerbert. the TN is always 5. Threshold = how many hits you need to get the base effect. if the threshold is 3, you need 3 successes at TN 5 to get the base effect. your 4th hit would count as two net successes, your 5th would count as 3, etcetera.

Serbitar

Aug 18 2005, 08:35 AM

Post #225

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QUOTE (Sabosect)

It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes.

You meant low.

So low that it doesnt matter. You would need 6^5 dice, thats about 7000 to get 1 hit on average. neglegible for anny discussion about rules.

Fact is: A GM in SR4 can calculate success chances much easier than in SR3. So either the GM wants to kill the PCs, in which case he is a useless GM and rules wont stop him anyway, or he is a sensible GM and the new rules will help him calculate things better and increase survivability of players by reducing miscalculated rule situations.

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